New York Harbor Model Railroading

[steinjr]

I'd also like to see more construction pictures - and not the least, if you have the time for it and feel up to it - to hear a little more about how you plan to operate your layout.

Smile,
Stein

[CAR_FLOATER]

Stein, not a problem, I LOVE to talk about operations above almost anything else, mostly because I spend most of my time writing and researching it than I do modeling! That is probably the #1 reson the layout isn't done yet! My Friend Dave Ramos (<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nyhrr.com">www.nyhrr.com</a><!-- w -->) built his layout o almost full operational staus in under 4 years, and his isn't that much different in scope and operation, and I have been in my house almost 8 years, and I started working on the layout almost immediately, and I am still not finished! Yes, I am a procrastinator! Thank God for friends like Dave who keep me going.

Anywho, I digress once again....

Here are some more construction photos -

This is the basement almost as soon as we moved in in 2002. As you can see, I wasted no time in plotting out the footprint of the layout -


In this one, we are now in 2006. As you can see, I did not make much progress! -


OK, now we see progress! This is about 2008, and you can see the first pier. The others are just cardboard, suspended from the ceiling by masking tape! I did this to see if the all the piers I wanted would fit in the space I had, and still allow people to move in between them -


The next two photos show how I figured out the track in the yard without buying and wasting a whole lot of money on tunrouts (Pecos are NOT cheap!). It worked somewhat, but I still have a lot left over, since I have redesigned the yard a few times since -



And lastly for now, someone on Wikipedia was nice enough to make this map, which just so happens to very nicely show exactly what I am modeling, and put it into context of where on the riverfront, so all you out-of-towners can get a better idea -


More as I find them, and next post we'll get into operations,

RAH

[CAR_FLOATER]

Stein -

Well, you asked me to talk about my operations plan, and that is something that not only I enjoy talking about, but am infinitely more qualified to talk about (and as I believe I said before, over model building any day!). This layout was designed from the get go to operate just like the real thing, with scenery taking a secondary approach. Unlike some people who want to try to cram their layouts full of pretty scenes, or crazy track work, I tend to believe that less is more. By following the prototype (I tend to "Protolance" however, which by definition is a prototype-themed layout that is not %100 prototypically sincere to an exact time or place because of track work, industries or equipment), I have not only the same amount of industries that the prototype had (of course, there is the issue of selective compression in the size of them because of room available) but I also model industries representative of the area, which is one of the reasons I say I Protolance over strict Prototype modeling. A gravel loader or palm trees would be as out of place in Jersey City as a carfloat in the Arizona desert or a grain elevator in Vermont would be, so even though a cold storage warehouse may not have been on the CNJ in this part of Jersey City, there were many others just a few blocks away on the PRR and Erie, and I am OK with that. But I digress, so let me get on to explaining some stuff and painting a better picture of how I plan to operate this thing!

A very important part of my layout is the active staging, and the two people who will run them, called Active Staging Agents, or ASA's. One will handle the "west end" (Oak Island/East Claremont/CNJ) and one to handle the "east end" (carfloats to NYC). Like my friend Dave (NYHRR), there will be a pool of cars, and my two areas are at opposite corners of the basement, so two "caches" of cars will need to be "stockpiled". I do not have the length (or width) to build big staging yards like you see in the magazines to allow the pre-staging of trains, so the ASA's are given train and carfloat schedules and basic make-ups of what each train or float needs to carry, so they can grab the right kind of cars. As a side note, train and float capacities can varry. Obviously, a carfloat can only handle so many cars (14-15 max), but sometimes, a second float can be sent, and on the flip side of that, a carfloat does not always have to be full to be sent to it's destination. Just because it holds 14 cars doesn't mean there will always be 14 cars to send! The transfer jobs to and from the main west end staging yard are a different story, however. The longest fiddle track to build a train on (without doubling the train) can hold 14 cars, but as a general rule, 15 cars is the max a transfer job will handle (one carfloats' worth of cars). 15 cars with two SW's on the headend and a caboose is longer than you might think - I don't have an exact measurement (I'm at work right now), but if you figure that a 3 foot piece of flex track holds about 6 40ft cars, that's about a 9 foot train. It's only about 15 feet from staging to the main yard, so my trains can't bee too big, and even 15 cars is pushing it, but much less than that and I would think the trains would look too light/small!
As for storage of these cars, I have rolling carts that actually have self contained boxes that can hold about 12 cars (6 boxes to a cart, and I have 3 such carts) that I can use for the carfloat end (and to transfer cars between the ASA's), and at the fiddle yard end, it actually rests on a 4 foot tall metal cabinet that has drawers (3 wide by 10 tall) that can hold about 9 cars each) to store the cars in. So by doing an intial "seeding" of cars for each fiddle yard, I can get the guys building trains and floats right out of the gate, and then they will be responsible for following the the correct train/float makeups and transferring car types as they need them, between each other. There will probably be a guy who will run interference between each ASA as a helper, especially if I have extra guys at a session.

Which brings me to another point, which will soon answer your other questions. I figure a "full blown" op session will be about 16 guys, (including me), but I can run a "reduced" Holiday/Weekend schedule with as little as 9. Without going into too much detail, you'll have a General Freight Agent (responsible for waybilling and tracking only LV on-layout delivery of cars) - This will probably be handled by me, btw. Two ASA's, one at each end, and their "runner". A Yardmaster at the Johnston Ave float yard, who oversees the operation, he does not operate any trains. He oversees two yard swtichers, one who works only the floats, the other the piers and helps out where needed. There is also a Float Boss who he works with, he is more an assistant to the Harbor ASA than anything else though. OK, we now have 8 guys so far. Then we have the West Yard Yardmaster, who works along with the Grand Street LCL Freight Station Agent and the Communipaw Ave Tower Operator. The Tower Operator handles the movement of trains between staging and the yards, since the backdrop blocks the view of trains to and from, and the train crews have to walk around the layout to operate their trains. I plan to intall some kind of basic cab signal or bell signal dispatching system, but that is a whole other discussion worthy of it's own post! There are two other guys who will run the freight and passenger trains in and out of staging. OK, that is all for the LV side, and we now have 13 guys. The CNJ side of the layout will consist of the Jersey Ave Fright Station Agent (will handle the "billing" of cars to and from the branch), a local switcher, and one guy who will run to and from the yard and staging with cuts of cars, simulating the link to the larger CNJ rail system.
Now, a lot of these jobs can be consolidated, and probably should be, but I need to plan for as many guys as I can handle, and experience on my friend Dave's layout has shown that it take a while to know how your layout will operate, even with a pretty solid ops plan in place. It took us the better part of the year of successive op sessions at Dave's to get a handle on how and what the jobs will be able to handle. Some are too busy for what we threw at them, some not busy enough. It is a learning experience, for sure. In fact, I probably suffer from having more guys than I can handle that will want to operate on my layout, believe it or not. That is not always a good thing, trust me. The issue of having to deal with turning people away aside, it is just plain expensive! You have to think infrastructure (enough throttles, enough people space) but also supplying the "amenities" (bathroom, drinks and snacks) and Dave has experienced this problem firsthand with his regular crew of about 15. Trust me, smaller is sometimes better!

OK, I hope I have not bored you at all, so I am going to leave off for now, and come back later to talk about the train jobs in detail.

RAH

[steinjr]

Not bored in the least !

It is fascinating to hear about operating sessions for 10+ people, since I likely will never have an operating session for more than two (max) people on my layout.

And active staging sounds very sensible in your circumstances.

Smile,
Stein

[MountainMan]

Purely out of curiousity, can you operate the layout yourself for pleasure without all that crew?

[CAR_FLOATER]

Stein -

Glad you aren't bored! I'll get into more juicy detail soon! I'm going over to Dave Ramos' house tonight to help him do some work on his layout, and to pick up my new float bridges!

MountainMan -

Well, yes and no. If you mean, can I just let a train run and let it keep going round and round while I sit there and watch? No, it was not designed to be a roundy-round. I could operate it by myself, sure (I could run one of the two industrial branch jobs) because I have a radio throttle for my NCE system so I can follow the train where ever it goes around the layout, but the "fun' is in the group operating session for me.

RAH

[tetters]

As a side note, train and float capacities can varry. Obviously, a carfloat can only handle so many cars (14-15 max), but sometimes, a second float can be sent, and on the flip side of that, a carfloat does not always have to be full to be sent to it's destination. Just because it holds 14 cars doesn't mean there will always be 14 cars to send! The transfer jobs to and from the main west end staging yard are a different story, however. The longest fiddle track to build a train on (without doubling the train) can hold 14 cars, but as a general rule, 15 cars is the max a transfer job will handle (one carfloats' worth of cars). 15 cars with two SW's on the headend and a caboose is longer than you might think - I don't have an exact measurement (I'm at work right now), but if you figure that a 3 foot piece of flex track holds about 6 40ft cars, that's about a 9 foot train. It's only about 15 feet from staging to the main yard, so my trains can't bee too big, and even 15 cars is pushing it, but much less than that and I would think the trains would look too light/small!

This is a great bit of info for me. On my freelanced layout, I plan to use a car float as a way to stage cars for an operating session. Although the number of operators ( 2 - 3 maybe 4 at most) is no where near your requirements. I also would like to able to work the RR by myself without getting "overworked" so to speak, which in all honesty, is what I am really looking forward too.

Getting to my point though is that I always envisioned the car float as being loaded up to capacity for every session. Funny how it never occured to me that I could reduce the number of cars moved on and off layout by half or even less during a given op session. Which will probably be ideal for those days when I just want to operate by myself and move some freight around.

The point about train length is good too. My largest siding is meant to hold about 10-12 cars max. Its the one that will be near the wharf and float bridge area once I've laid the track for it. I read an interesting "rule" recently where a particular model railroader uses the 1 = 3 rule. 1 car on his layout equals 3 in the real world. An idea I can sort of appreciate. Although, as it stands I can assemble a train right now and "deliver" three to four cars per industry siding, which I figure is pretty close to realistic as it get in my 16x15 foot world.

[CAR_FLOATER]

Tetters-

If I had them handy, I'd post a couple of carfloat pictures from New York Harbor with onl;y one or two cars on it, and sometimes, the second "car" was a locomotive! The terminal yards in Manhattan and the Bronx had to send the engines back to be repaired to New Jersey, so this is how they did it (and still do)! Actually, most people will tell you an old wives tale that switchers weren't allowed on a float bridge, let alone a carfloat, but a switcher is probably lighter than a loaded frieght cars, so don't believe it if you hear it!

Also, it is generally true that the longest yard track should hold one full carfloat's worth of cars, but that is in the real world yards. In our compressed worlds, we are lucky if we have three tracks (one for each carfloat track, so that would be about 4 to 5 cars a track, X 3 tracks) and one open run-around or thru track in our yards. Fat chance for most of us, but I almost have that capacity for my yard. ALMOST!

Oh, and I like that 1-to-3 car rule, too!

RAH

[nachoman]

I am very much enjoying the photos of this construction. This is a very cool and inspiring layout.

[steinjr]

I am very much enjoying the photos of this construction. This is a very cool and inspiring layout.

Speaking about inspiring photos - being curious, I clicked through to see the other pictures in the CAR FLOATER gallery on trainboard.com, and saw this magnificent prototype picture - I would say the look and feel of the prototype is being caught very well in this layout:

Prototype:


Model:


Bravo!

Smile,
Stein

[MountainMan]

Quite a project!

[Ralph]

I've always been attracted to rail/water operations. CAR_FLOATER, I'm amazed by the number of people you plan to involved in yours! My carfloat is a simple two track affair that I use for staging. It holds ten cars and the small yard that serves it has a track that can accommodate that length of train. I make these cars into a transfer run that goes to a yard off layout. The pics of the large NY Harbor layout have captured my interest. I'm looking forward to more.

Ralph

[Russ Bellinis]

I think it is primarily in places like the car float operations in Vancouver, B.C. where the barges are loaded out to ship freight up to Alaska where they don't let switchers on the apron. At least every pic I've seen of the loading process up there showed them using a bunch of empty flats as a handle between the locomotive and the cars. Of course, I don't remember seeing what locomotives they were using to switch out the barges up there. They may have been using some of the more modern super power rather than small switchers.

[tetters]

Tetters-

If I had them handy, I'd post a couple of carfloat pictures from New York Harbor with onl;y one or two cars on it, and sometimes, the second "car" was a locomotive! The terminal yards in Manhattan and the Bronx had to send the engines back to be repaired to New Jersey, so this is how they did it (and still do)! Actually, most people will tell you an old wives tale that switchers weren't allowed on a float bridge, let alone a carfloat, but a switcher is probably lighter than a loaded frieght cars, so don't believe it if you hear it!

Also, it is generally true that the longest yard track should hold one full carfloat's worth of cars, but that is in the real world yards. In our compressed worlds, we are lucky if we have three tracks (one for each carfloat track, so that would be about 4 to 5 cars a track, X 3 tracks) and one open run-around or thru track in our yards. Fat chance for most of us, but I almost have that capacity for my yard. ALMOST!

Oh, and I like that 1-to-3 car rule, too!

RAH

I posted a picture of a loco on float with several cars on my current layout thread located here...http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic...3&start=30

So I have no compunction about allowing a loco onto my truss bridge. The float I'm still undecided on as I initially did not plan on wiring it but, might end up running some power feeders to the track including an isolated frog. So much to do before I even get that far.

[foulrift]

This has got to be one of the most awesome layouts I have seen a sometime. It's amazing and I can't wait to see more pictures.
The workmanship is excellent.Keep up the fine work.
Bob