What dont you like about this hobby

[MountainMan]

On the other hand, what is "healthy" about modeling modern railroads, wherein all of the equipment looks alike and the buildings are just big, identical boxes without any identity? I think of this as "uni-modeling" - build whatever you like, label it any way you like, because it doesn't make any difference anyway. Like modern cars, everything now looks exactly the same.

I'll take the nostalgia, thanks.

[Sumpter250]

Lack of diversity among modelers. Face it, go to a train show and 90% of people there fit a certain age/sex/socioeconomic and sometimes political demographic. It happens with many hobbies, and I am not sure why that is. But, I think model railroading could use more input from women and the younger crowd, as well as from different cultures. New perspectives could keep things fresh and exciting.

I think, more accurately, that 90% of the modelers, fit the above statement, there is a large number of attendees (read viewers) who more accurately fit the "women------cultures" group. Yeah, I do a lot of train shows.

Provincialism. Modelers focus on local railroads, and their interests are determined heavily by what they've personally experienced in rather simple ways. I don't hold this against anyone individually. It's just disappointing that many smaller prototypes with interesting characteristics are rarely considered by modellers far from those places.

Those who model freelance, are more inclined to pick up on some of the " smaller prototypes with interesting characteristics" that give their roads a feeling of reality.

What is wrong with "nostalgia", or "historical interest in the past", if you prefer, and how is it a "statistical thing"? Think of it this way - if it weren't for the "nostalgia", there would be no history left anywhere.
"Provincialism" is an interesting concept, but the real question is why those who live in areas with interesting shortlines and ghost railroads don't model them instead of the big, modern layouts that everyone else seems to model? Lack of available equipment and rolling stock? Too much trouble to convert? Too much research? This issue, to me, is on a par with why Germans, Dutch, Australians and others want to model American railroads instead of their own history?

"Nostalgia": those who choose not to study history, are doomed to repeat it. Yet, nostalgia, can be seen in the prototype...... Railway/railroad museums. Then again, there is something fascinating about the complete workings of a steam locomotive. Lots of solid technology hidden, just out of sight. There aren't many in this hobby who know all the hidden details of steam or diesel construction, myself included, but I'm.......learning.
"Provincialism": I think the answer here, lies in "competition". An unstated challenge of "I can build UP better than you can". (by the way, Union Pacific, is my least favorite road. Nothing personal, just me). My 2-4-2 project is based on the Warrenton Railroad's little Baldwin. The Warrenton was an interesting "little" shortline.

The rest of it, though, seems to be true. Among American modellers, most are white, male and politically conservative. I often find this environment oppressive.

I think you will find that "American modelers" are far more diverse than they appear to be. That said, however, politically conservative, white males, can create an oppressive environment. The secret here, is, don't stay in that environment any longer than necessary, or, don't ask "what they think, ask, instead, how did you build "that"?, or how did you do that paint scheme? You might find it brings out the artist, rather than the political conservative. It is, after all, the hobby that should be prominent at train shows.

[MountainMan]

The nostalgia comment reminded me of a personal experience... I once took a sketching class, and the instructor had an exercise where we were supposed to sketch a coffee cup. "Sketch it as you see it", he instructed. He placed the coffee cup in front of a camera, and displayed the image via a large screen so everyone in the classroom was seeing the same image of the coffee cup. Again, the exercise was to sketch what we saw on the screen.

After 5 minutes elapsed, he went around the room and selected students drawings as examples for the class. Some showed the coffee cup from an angle where one could see inside the rim, others where the inside of the cup could not be seen. Some had the handle on the left, some on the right, some had the shadows on the right, others on the left. But they were all instructed to draw the same image.

The point was that many people weren't drawing what they saw. They instead saw a coffee cup, and drew what a coffee cup is supposed to look like (from their memory). I wonder if nostalgia and model railroading is the same way. Instead of recreating what was there, we selectively (consciously or unconsciously) recreate what we think is supposed to be there. In some instances this is manifested as "modelers license". In others, it is "selective compression", a side effect of having a lack of layout space. But in other instances we are creating what we think a model layout ought to have - tunnels, high bridges, happy people playing in a park. But that is also the best part about this hobby - it is our layout and we can create what we want, or what we like.

I think that concept depends on what you think model railroading actually is. If you are a strict prototyper, then what you seek to do is create a museum-quality model of a specific place and time. If you are not, then you seek to model an operating railroad with the "feel" and "flavor" of a particular era, usually bending history to make it fit.

What is interesting about this hobby is that it has no fantasy modelers, except those interested in Thomas The Train Engine, perhaps.

[Sumpter250]

Although I lived in the Catskill Mountain area as a boy I did not have much knowledge about 19th and early 20th century railroading there. I later found a book about the Ulster and Delaware Railroad that inclued information about narrow gauge lines in the Catskills as well. Ralph

I remember steam on the Harlem Division of the NYC, in Croton Falls, N.Y., and visited my uncle in Poughkeepsie many times, but until this moment was totally unaware of narrow gauge in the Catskills!!
Guess I have some research to do.

[Gary S]

That said, however, politically conservative, white males, can create an oppressive environment.

:cry:

I'm going to point out that any group of like-minded, politically similar people of the same race could seem oppressive. If I joined a knititng club which consisted of Afro-American radically-liberal communist lesbians, I would imagine that I best keep my mouth shut. Come on, guys! I haven't seen a single bit of oppression EVER in the model railroad world. What I have found is a tremendously helpful and gracious bunch of people who are enjoying and sharing the hobby. And, I would LOVE to hear some factual occurences of all this oPpResSioN that apparently is running rampant in the hobby.

[Sumpter250]

Come on, guys! I haven't seen a single bit of oppression EVER in the model railroad world. What I have found is a tremendously helpful and gracious bunch of people who are enjoying and sharing the hobby. And, I would LOVE to hear some factual occurences of all this oPpResSioN that apparently is running rampant in the hobby.

Being one, a "politically agitative, white, male", I have entered into "those discussions" and have become aware of the discomfort they can produce. The "environment" becomes oppressive. I did not mean to imply that " oPpResSioN is running rampant in the hobby."
It doesn't seem to occur when "tremendously helpful and gracious people are enjoying and sharing the hobby", and the best way to keep it that way, is to avoid starting the political conversation. (And no, :oops: I still haven't thoroughly learned that lesson yet )

[steinjr]

For some reason, I am starting to hear Tom Bergeron's voice in my head : "Today on versus - oppressive politically conservative, white male model railroaders vs Afro-American radically-liberal communist lesbian knitters"

Sounds like an interesting combination.

Grin,
Stein, who is considering whether farcical aquatic ceremonies might make a more interesting basis for government ....
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0

[scubadude]

[nachoman]

What is interesting about this hobby is that it has no fantasy modelers, except those interested in Thomas The Train Engine, perhaps.

there are a few great model railroads that border on character - with over-exaggerated features. Gorre & Daphetid, Franklin % South manchester. I am not talking just physical features, but cultural features as well. That is about as close to "fantasy" as i have seen (well, with the exception of tyco's turbo train and the Stiesel ). But, this is exactly what I am talking about. If someone could effectively incorporate a fantasy element to their layout - I would be extremely interested. Even though the theme may not be my cup of tea, the alternative approach would be quite refreshing.

[eightyeightfan1]

Although I lived in the Catskill Mountain area as a boy I did not have much knowledge about 19th and early 20th century railroading there. I later found a book about the Ulster and Delaware Railroad that inclued information about narrow gauge lines in the Catskills as well. Ralph

I remember steam on the Harlem Division of the NYC, in Croton Falls, N.Y., and visited my uncle in Poughkeepsie many times, but until this moment was totally unaware of narrow gauge in the Catskills!!
Guess I have some research to do.

Apparently, there were two of them. According to what I found here<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.kinglyheirs.com/AbandonedRR/CatskillMountain1.html#CatskillMountain">http://www.kinglyheirs.com/AbandonedRR/ ... llMountain</a><!-- m -->), the Stoney Cove & Catskill Mountain, and the Kaaterskill Railroad. According to the article, both were absorbed by the Ulster and Delaware, and the tracks were converted to standard gauge before 1940.

[MountainMan]

For some reason, I am starting to hear Tom Bergeron's voice in my head : "Today on versus - oppressive politically conservative, white male model railroaders vs Afro-American radically-liberal communist lesbian knitters"

Sounds like an interesting combination.

Grin,
Stein, who is considering whether farcical aquatic ceremonies might make a more interesting basis for government ....
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0

Maybe they can knit me a Light Mountain 2-8-2?

Funny how some people want to stereotype all modelers, and one in particular who believes that the majority of male modelers belong with the women.

think, more accurately, that 90% of the modelers, fit the above statement, there is a large number of attendees (read viewers) who more accurately fit the "women------cultures" group.

That is some strange thinking, to say the least. I constantly look for ways to enlist my wife's help in my modeling, since she has a better eye for colors and groupings than I do.

The commentaries about nostalgia are unnerving, s well. I get the impression that it is somehow considered to be some sort of derangement, yet these same modelers who condemn the rest are among the first to put Santa trains under their Christmas trees, organize Easter egg hunts and act like they believe in childrens' fairy tales. I'll take the nostalgia any time.

All of this is precisely one of the main reasons I do not belong to clubs and model on my own. I seek pleasure and enjoyment from what I do - not criticism and put-downs, nor comparisons to "lesbian knitting groups", which by logical extension would make male model railroad clubs "men's gay toy railroad groups", right?

What don't I like about the hobby? The attitudes thus far displayed by far too many.

[nachoman]

What I have found is a tremendously helpful and gracious bunch of people who are enjoying and sharing the hobby. And, I would LOVE to hear some factual occurences of all this oPpResSioN that apparently is running rampant in the hobby.

Definitely not on this site. But other model forums definitely yes. That is why I post here, but rarely elsewhere. A good example may be one of several prototype narrow gauge railroad forums. If you post *anything* that disagrees with the accepted history, or even hint at a political viewpoint that disagrees with the majority, you better wear a flame retardant suit . Unfortunately, political discussions are inevitable on such boards because many discussions have to do with the preservation of historic trains, and that may mean public monies being used, environmental concerns, or historical accuracy discussions. On the other hand, you will be applauded for posting a viewpoint that agrees with the majority. I have seen flame wars escalate to nasty name calling and nearly to threats of violence. Yeah, that bad. I would consider that an oppressive environment towards minority viewpoints. Unfortunately, if you are seeking honest information or discussion, i do not know of any narrow gauge discussion boards that readily welcome alternative views.

Example #2 - go over to the Model Railroad forum and post a subject like "how to add graffiti to my trains", or "how best to clean my track". The graffiti thread will get angry responses until it gets locked, and the track cleaning thread will get you several "use the search function" or "google is your friend" responses. If you were a newbie and genuinely had track cleaning issues or genuinely wanted graffiti painting techniques, then I would consider that forum to be oppressive.

[Ralph]

Apparently, there were two of them. According to what I found here<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.kinglyheirs.com/AbandonedRR/CatskillMountain1.html#CatskillMountain">http://www.kinglyheirs.com/AbandonedRR/ ... llMountain</a><!-- m -->), the Stoney Cove & Catskill Mountain, and the Kaaterskill Railroad. According to the article, both were absorbed by the Ulster and Delaware, and the tracks were converted to standard gauge before 1940.

Nice find Ed. There was also a Catskill Mountain RR that competed with the Stoney Cove and Catskill Mt. These 3 foot gauge roads were built as competition for passenger service to mountain resorts heated up.

The now out of print book "The Ulster and Delaware...Railroad Through the Catskills" by Gerald M. Best is a great resource with lots of photos of vintage equipment.
Ralph

[Gary S]

not criticism and put-downs, nor comparisons to "lesbian knitting groups", which by logical extension would make male model railroad clubs "men's gay toy railroad groups", right?

No, no, that wasn't the intent. Being a white conservative male myself, I get darned tired of society blaming "me" for all the evils of the world. And here it is showing up in my hobby on my favorite railroad forum. I was just pointing out that white conservative males are not the only group capable of oPpResSioN. And, in fact, I have found that model railroaders are exactly the opposite of evil oppressive monsters - they are a darned friendly bunch.

A good example may be one of several prototype narrow gauge railroad forums. If you post *anything* that disagrees with the accepted history, or even hint at a political viewpoint that disagrees with the majority, you better wear a flame retardant suit

Maybe I am naive, but the folks I spend time with just don't do that much oppressing.

Anyway, I have said enough. I am a white conservative male, and contrary to popular belief, I am not the scourge of humanity.

[Gary S]

Kevin, it just dawned on me. We're not talking about white conservative males. We're talking about grumpy old farts. And they come in all sizes, shapes, colors, and political persuasions.