To DCC, or to not DCC

[nachoman]

As some of you may be aware my original intent was to go DCC on my 4x8 layout. I planned to add decoders to my locos and choose a DCC system once the track work was done and tested. Bus since then, I have become unemployed and I have been re-evaluating priorities. When I eventually go back to work, funds will still be tight for a while - maybe a long while. DCC, even a cheaper system, may no longer make sense. I figure it would cost me about 400 dollars for the basic DCC system and decoders for all of my locos. That 400 dollars would be much better spent towards other things, unless I can convince myself that DCC is vital to the operation of my layout. My original intent with DCC was to make wiring simpler, and to not have to worry about blocks and throwing switches when operating my layout. This still appeals to me.

But, here are my criteria:
1) No more than 4 locomotives will be on the layout at one time, and I don't envision double headers. The layout is small enough that trains will be short, and idle locomotives will have to be kept in the roundhouse in order to be out of the way.
2) One operator. There is a possibility of having a train run the loop while another switches my upper yard.
3) I have zero interest in sound. ZERO. I also have little interest in extravagant lighting effects (this is a 1915-1920 era layout)

My question is this: Am I overlooking some other advantage to DCC? WIll the trains run better or more reliably? If there is a significant improvement in performance, it may be worth my limited money. Considering I could segment my layout into blocks rather cheaply and easily - I am hoping someone can give me reasons why DCC is still the way to go. If I choose DCC, it will probably be 2 years before I can afford it. If I stay with block/cab control DC, I can have things wired in a week. Thoughts?

[Puddlejumper]

I would stick with DC. While DCC has many advantages, your criteria of only a few locos, and only 1 operator at a time, really you could get by just fine with DC. In a couple years, when your budget increases, you can very easily convert a DC layout to DCC if you choose.

I even have an MRC power pack I will send you if it will help out.

dave

[nachoman]

I even have an MRC power pack I will send you if it will help out.

dave

Thanks, but I am set there

[Steamtrains]

Starting out with DC and contemplating a change to DCC in the future is very doable. Just set your block switches to one side, and plug in your DCC into that "side" of your block wiring. It's so doable, I did it myself -- in reverse. I now have a DCC/DC layout, with just the addition of a DPDT switch, and an input jack for the DC pack....
The only drawback to DC-for a small layout/operation like you envision, is performance...The difference in loco performance is quite noticeable.

[nachoman]

Starting out with DC and contemplating a change to DCC in the future is very doable. Just set your block switches to one side, and plug in your DCC into that "side" of your block wiring. It's so doable, I did it myself -- in reverse. I now have a DCC/DC layout, with just the addition of a DPDT switch, and an input jack for the DC pack....
The only drawback to DC-for a small layout/operation like you envision, is performance...The difference in loco performance is quite noticeable.

So locos perform better on DCC? How so?

[Steamtrains]

Absolutely....I had some older locos from my DC days, and were real "dogs" as far as running went, even with the new-fangled packs (MRC's). Just the addition of a decoder turned them into as good a runner as any I have purchased since then and run on DCC only....The slow speed performance improves 100%, and acceleration & deceleration are really nice, and you don't have to tweek the control to do it, as you would in DC. Also for switching (which I do a LOT), just set the throttle to a good switching speed (slow), and all you'll have to do is use the reverse (center off) switch for all your movements.

[Gary S]

Kevin, even though I love my digitrax DCC, I think you are making the right move for know. Save the money to use for more important "real life" things for now. As others have mentioned, you can swap over to DCC later.

I agree with Gus that being able to set the CVs for starting voltage, midrange, and top end makes a loco easier to operate. Also having momentum/acceleration/deceleration variables to adjust is good. There are also Cvs for "kickstart" which can help a sluggish loco to run better. But all of this is icing on the cake for now. The cake is the real deal, the icing can come later.

[woodone]

$400.00 would go a LOOOOG way with a starter DCC system. NCE Power Cab can be had for less then $150.00. Non sound decoders at about $25.00 OR less will convert a lot of locos with what you have left over of your $400.00
Try running your DC loco's (on the same track) one right behind the other, stop the rear one and back it up and restart it forward while all the time the lead loco keeps on running. You did not have the throw one block switch. And you could not do that with a block system unless you were in the correct blocks at that.
Very easy to use DCC systems.

[doctorwayne]

While I've seen DCC run, I use DC myself, for most of the reasons which you've outlined. Any reasonably decent-quality locos of similar type should run well enough together to doublehead using DC power. I doublehead my locos all the time, and sometimes run three or four on the same train. I can also run pushers with no problems, and this includes Bachmann 2-8-0s, Athearn Mikados, and, when I still had them, many diesels, in combination with like locos or any of other types and makes. DCC, from the threads that I've read here and elsewhere, requires very clean track and is fussy on the power supply, often requiring bus wires for current distribution. My layout, currently at just under 200' of mainline, has a single pair of wires from the power pack to the track and I do not clean track, except after ballasting.
If you're not interested in sound (almost 40 years in a steel mill was enough sound to last me a lifetime ) and special lighting effects hold no attraction (after you put all your efforts into detailing your trains and layout, are you gonna hide it all by running in the dark? ) then the only thing that DCC really offers for you and me is independent loco control. Sorry, but I don't have a lot of situations where that would be required. If there's a train moving on my layout, there had better be someone actively controlling it (and, at the same time, enjoying doing so).

Wayne

[steinjr]

Starting out with DC and contemplating a change to DCC in the future is very doable. Just set your block switches to one side, and plug in your DCC into that "side" of your block wiring. It's so doable, I did it myself -- in reverse. I now have a DCC/DC layout, with just the addition of a DPDT switch, and an input jack for the DC pack....
The only drawback to DC-for a small layout/operation like you envision, is performance...The difference in loco performance is quite noticeable.

So locos perform better on DCC? How so?

Mmmm - could be related to the tracks being at full voltage all the time in DCC - with the decoder inside the engine determining how much juice to feed on to the motor, whereas in DC, you lower and increase voltage on the tracks using your controller.

Possibly it is a little easier to maintain power to the motor at a desired level when it is less dependent on where on the tracks the locomotive is (ie how far from your feeder wires). Especially at very slow speeds.

Probably not a big thing on a 4x8 foot layout, though. Not on a well wired bigger layout with ample feeder wires either, for that matter.

If you don't need to move two engines independent of each other at the same time in the same area, and you can park other engines on tracks (like at an engine service track) that can be de-energized with a block selector switch of some kind, DC should work just fine for your application.

Smile,
Stein

[nachoman]

thank you everyone for the excellent advice. I have much to think about.

[Steamtrains]

As for cost....$400.00 is a "little" over the top. I bought my D'trax Zephyr for $160, and decoders nowadays are running about $23 a piece....These are just your plain motor/lights decoders, which is all you really need for steamers (no sound, of course). There is no need to do the conversion of the whole stable of locos at one crack. Pick a few favorites (we all have them... ) and go with those. After some time, do a couple of others, and so on....Finally, I've chosen to leave a few that won't ever have a decoder put in them (old...not so good locos), but that I like to run now and then, just for ol' times' sake. That's why I decided to do a DC/DCC setup. With the flip of a switch I can run these ol' timers for a few laps, and then back they go to their storage tracks....

[TrainNut]

I bought my D'trax Zephyr for $160... Finally, I've chosen to leave a few that won't ever have a decoder put in them (old...not so good locos), but that I like to run now and then, just for ol' times' sake. That's why I decided to do a DC/DCC setup. With the flip of a switch I can run these ol' timers for a few laps, and then back they go to their storage tracks....

But see, that's already the beauty of the Digitrax Zephyr... It will run ONE DC loco anytime ALONG with the DCC locomotives. You DON'T have to convert the ones you don't want to as long as you use the OO address for running them.
The negatives to that are that DC locomotives will buzz on a DCC system and can be damaging if left on the tracks to sit idle and buzz for a long time. The Zephyr also won't remember throttle settings when switching between engines, soooo, while it can do it, running multiple engines simultaneously can be a pain. That's why I use a DT400R hand held in addition to my Zephyr. Live and learn. If I could go back and do it again, I'd go with the NCE Powercab.
I know you said that you have no interest in sound and neither did I... until I had the chance to play with one and then there was no turning back. I've now got 7 sound equipped locomotives. If you like, I can bring over my Zephyr and Blackstone one of these days.

[nachoman]

As for cost....$400.00 is a "little" over the top. I bought my D'trax Zephyr for $160, and decoders nowadays are running about $23 a piece....These are just your plain motor/lights decoders, which is all you really need for steamers (no sound, of course). There is no need to do the conversion of the whole stable of locos at one crack. Pick a few favorites (we all have them... ) and go with those. After some time, do a couple of others, and so on....Finally, I've chosen to leave a few that won't ever have a decoder put in them (old...not so good locos), but that I like to run now and then, just for ol' times' sake. That's why I decided to do a DC/DCC setup. With the flip of a switch I can run these ol' timers for a few laps, and then back they go to their storage tracks....

I figure 150 for the basic DCC setup, and then 7 decoders at 25 per unit and I am looking at 325$ Even though I would install the decoders one at a time, I would still convert 7 locomotives eventually. Money will be tight for a long while, and until funding becomes available I would like the ability to run more than "one or two" locomotives. I've got all I need to set up my layout for DC blocks, and after thinking about it, there would only be four of them. I am leaning in the direction of going DC for now, because it wouldn't be any harder to convert 2 years from now than it would be now. In the meantime, I can cut a few rail gaps and build a little control panel and have at it.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

[Sumpter250]

Caveat: DC and DCC in a block ( cab) control situation. NEVER let a DC engine enter a live DCC block. The DC can be routed to the DCC controller (Zephyr, Power cab, etc) through the loco's wheels, and very probably cause significant damage.

DCC: Primary advantages; Sound, light control, multiple locos, and opposing direction movements on the same track (the "Adams Family Effect", great if you want head-on collisions), and the ability to match, through CV settings, locomotive performance.
Primary disadvantages; dirt. Not only for the motor current, but also for the command and control signals. The track has to be kept cleaner to insure "communication" between the base station, and the decoder. And......cost.
On a 4' X8' layout ? The only real advantage I could see would be sound.
The modular group modified the power distribution board to be able to switch to DCC, primarily for the ability to use sound, and that has been a very recent thing.