La Mirada, CA Industrial Switching Layout Progress

[P5se Camelback]

I realize that I am coming into this a little late and almost a whole page beyond its last mention, but I feel the need to comment on what I perceive to be a few legal misconceptions.

I do hope to eventually make molds of kitbashes i make, but i'm curious, if i were to cut up a RailPower Products SD45 and some other engines and make a totally different engine (using the pieces), does it still count as copying the original manufacturer's work (as i didn't individually build the thing from scratch)?

It does not matter if you use part or all of a manufactured product, it is copyright infringement. … if you cut up an Athearn shell, an Atlas shell, and an Intermountain shell for instance to kitbash a single locomotive, you are now guilty of copyright infringement to three manufacturers instead of one with triple the possible damages!

Now, I have been out of the design/tooling/injection molding/assembling/ marketing/selling loop for a number of years. However, unless I am grossly mistaken, Copyright and Patent Laws have not changed all that much since my required class in both when I was a senior at Philadelphia College of Art in 1973. (Yes, artists and designers are often taught copyright and patent law for their own protection! It was an important class in my senior year, taught by a patent/copyright attorney, and I still have the notes from that class!)

First off, I realize that this is nit-picking, but Copyright Law applies primarily to printed materials, e.g., the written word, logos, most commercial graphics, like trade marked images (another totally different set of laws) but generally not three-dimensional things.

Products (three-dimensional things) are usually covered by Patent Law. There are several different types of patents, engineering, functional, design, etc.

For Russ’s and all other’s edification re: cutting up several items to use the parts thereof to construct a different item, i.e., “kit bashing,” is not, per se, an infringement of any kind law, or else people like Art Curren would have lived out their final days in prison!

Making molds of an existing item for personal use is not a violation of any law.

However, what WILL get you in a considerable amount of trouble with legal authorities is when a mold is pulled from an existing product or assembly of products and then the parts produced from those molds are offered for sale to the public. I recall such a case from the mid- to late-’70’s when a young guy got the bright idea to pull molds from some of Scale Structures Limited’s finely detailed miniature soft metal castings and put them in a shiny blue box (much like SS Ltd.’s shiny red box) along with a set of hastily drawn and “Kopy-Kwik” printed simplistic elevation drawings and some rather vague instructions, include a few sticks of strip wood, a few small strips of aluminum foil to use as metal siding and call it a “Paige Enterprises” craftsman’s kit. 8-)

He even managed to get national distribution to hobby shops across the country before SS Ltd’s attorney’s got to him. I can’t recall whether he got off with merely a “cease and desist” and a very stiff fine or whether he actually had to spend some time with “Bubba” for a room mate. hock:

However … G.E.C. should be O.K. pulling molds of his kit bashed diesel or electric locomotives for the purposes of producing body shells for his own use, to increase the size of his own fleet of motive power. But the moment he sells one of those shells to one of us, or the kid down the block, THEN he has broken the law.

That’s my understanding of the law.

Now I am not an attorney. I don’t play one on TV! I am just a retired Industrial Designer commenting on Patent and Copyright laws.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

4 axles, on your roster? I remember not so long ago it was all SDs. Nice wide cabs.

Still wishing i had the space to give myself a larger yard (maybe not that big), i think i've long out grown my 4x8.

That's looking real nice! Probably feels good to have some tracks with trains on them. BTW, amazing how fast paint thinner dissolves foam, eh?

Yeah, i've had a cave form over a couple years in a block of foam i used to take photographs with (then i got a mini tripod for christmas). it started as a dent, but what the thinner didn't eat, it made so frail that it crunched like old leaves, leaving a cave. It will probably be fine if you don't poke it to much.

However … G.E.C. should be O.K. pulling molds of his kit bashed diesel or electric locomotives for the purposes of producing body shells for his own use, to increase the size of his own fleet of motive power. But the moment he sells one of those shells to one of us, or the kid down the block, THEN he has broken the law.

well, i think I'll just stick to sharing amongst friends then. Still, i wonder how i could produce these things from scratch so that i don't have to worry about these issues. I definitely didn't plan on pulling anything off like the kid you described, though that is a somewhat funny story. I figure these molds can cast 10-20 shells and then their done, and i probably won't make another mold.

[P5se Camelback]

I may have missed it, but what material are you using for your molds? How many pieces are the molds?

Multiple piece molds are a little more difficult to make, but in general, for cast pieces, last a little longer due to less stress on the mold in the "de-molding" process.

"Gifting" items cast in your molds of a kit-bashed item are probably O.K. in the eyes of the law, as long as no money changes hands.

[tomustang]

Touchy, but I wonder if the companys that made the shells have patents, since they are copies from the original locomotive design that has a patent already. I wonder If it's even possible to make a patent for a design that's trying to duplicate an actual design/process.

Figure if it was a replicate of the old patent plans the statue of 20 years from the filing date might of been done already...

[P5se Camelback]

Like I stated earlier ...

I am not an attorney. I don’t play one on TV! I am just a retired Industrial Designer commenting on Patent and Copyright laws.

You'll need an actual patent/copyright attorney to fully answer the questions. Best to do things for your own use, keep how it was done to yourself and despite being "B.F.F.E.'s" with somebody, let them come up with their own E-44's!

[Russ Bellinis]

Thanks Bil.
You said exactly what I was trying to say, but your explanation was a lot clearer! I did not realize the difference between copyright, and patent. I thought patents were issued only for new inventions, and that design came under copyright law. I am also a car nut, and have noticed that Ferrari is very protective of their designs including or I should say especially their "styling" and trademarks. The kit car industry loves to clone Ferrari models on various less expensive chassis. The 250GT California Spider, Ferrari Daytona, and the 250GTO are especially popular. The newest of these cars was last built in @1972 or 73, yet Ferrari has still successfully gone after companies for cloning these car bodies. Carroll Shelby tried to do the same thing for the Cobra kits, but the court ruled that the body design belonged to AC Cars of the U.K., and the Cobra name and logo was sold to Ford, so Shelby had no case.

U.P. has been doing the same thing to model manufacturers regarding their trademarks including enforcing trademark infringement for all of the fallen flags that they have purchased and phased out. The court ruled that since U.P. was not using any of the trade marked "fallen flag" paint schemes and names that they had no case. Was it just coincidence that they came out with all of those heritage paint schemes right after the court handed down it's ruling?

[P5se Camelback]

Russ has now stepped in it! 8-)

Just joking ... but he has broached the subject of licensing, or the right to produce an item that bears a licenced Trade Mark, a whole different and much more convoluted collection of laws!

Basically, if you wish to produce a model of a Ferrari or a U.P. locomotive (or box car,) since those logos are trade "marked," i.e., the logo "marks" an item as belonging to, or having been produced by the Trade Mark holder and therefore you must get permission, or buy license, to use that Trade Mark on your model. The same is true for sports teams and most other companies or organizations which have spent beaucoup bucks to have some graphic design house develop a logotype that "represents" that company or organization in the market place. (The cost of a logotype is usually based on the expected life of the logo and the value it will have to the company over that period of time. It can get expensive! NBC spent a couple million on that red and blue "N"!)

Some companies are more protective than others ... the Union Pacific and Ferrari are two such companies, and will bleed you dry for voilating their Trade Mark or design (appearance) patent.

(The Dust Buster people hung the Dirt Devil people out to dry over a copy-cat product a number of years back! It's business ... and business has spent too many dollars on developing a new product to let someone change the color and call it a different product!)

[Trucklover]

That's looking real nice! Probably feels good to have some tracks with trains on them. BTW, amazing how fast paint thinner dissolves foam, eh?

Thanks Kevin You bet it feels good to finally set some of my trains on some rails lol. Even though I have gotten the feeds soldered on for this module, I still have not run the bus line or connected any of the feeders to the bus line so I still dont have power in the tracks... I also need to get myself a DCC System as well. But I did get a couple 9V batteries and pressed them to the rails to test a few engines. It was neat to see a train actually run down the rails! It is sad to say, but it is the first time ive actually had a train move on something i have built lol

Josh, good to see you! Those locos look good and the yard does too. Keep up the good work.

Good to see you too Gary! I havnt been around much, but now that I am working on this module more and more I should be around more often BTW, thanks

I realize that I am coming into this a little late and almost a whole page beyond its last mention, but I feel the need to comment on what I perceive to be a few legal misconceptions.

No worries Bil, copyrights and patent laws is some serious stuff, I would hate to see anyone get busted for doing something they shouldnt be, myself included lol

4 axles, on your roster? I remember not so long ago it was all SDs. Nice wide cabs.

LOL well I will be switching the whole layout with 4-axle power, those 6 GP60M's will be all that is used on the layout... I still have my 6-axle power though

[Trucklover]

Been ballasting the mainline and the first track next to the mainline the last few hours. Havnt gotten much done, just doing small sections at a time and taking my time making sure that I fill the ties just enough without over filling them as well as doing inspections to make sure no ballast is on the tops of the ties after the Matte Medium Adhesive. So far ive gotten about 5' of mainline, 3' of the track next to the mainline, and one turnout ballasted with Santa Fe "Winslow Hue" from Arizona Rock & Mineral. The other tracks in the yard will be either light or medium gray blends mixed from Penn Gray & CSX/SP Gray Ballast

Will post some pictures when I get a little more done and its worth snapping some pictures off lol

[Trucklover]

Got some pictures to update on the ballast work that I have been slowly working on the past couple days. I finally got a good enough portion done worth taking pictures for lol. Im about half way ballasted with Module #5 now...

Here are a few pictures:

[Justinmiller171]

Great Work! But what's with all of the CSX Motive Power, Don't tell me your changing the location to Miami!

[Trucklover]

Great Work! But what's with all of the CSX Motive Power, Don't tell me your changing the location to Miami!

LOL I had all the CSX Power out to photograph, I may be selling them all and I usually give one of my best customers a first dibs on stuff like this. If he does not want any of them, I may sell some and keep some. I really like my CSX YN3 DCC/SOUND SD70M and my CSX "Stealth" SD60. Ahhh heck, I like SD50's and the SD70MAc as well lol but i figure i can always buy a newer run model if I really want them again some day in the future.

[ocalicreek]

Yeah, I remember seeing the occaional Norfolk Southern power out west, usually on a BNSF lashup. But I don't recall any CSX out that way. Still, they are sharp looking units! The balasting looks great. I know it's boring but at least you're taking the time to do it well and that shows. When the majority of the surface of the layout is track, you gotta make it look top notch. I remember an MR series called 'track is a model too'. Keep up the good work!

Galen

[Russ Bellinis]

Back before business slowed, I used to see CSX, NS, & CONRAIL power mixed in the lash ups for both U.P. and Santa Fe. I think the only class one I don't remember seeing out here was the Kansas City Southern.

[Trucklover]

Got all the ballasting done for the most part on the module. I also installed some Walthers Track Bumpers at the right end of the module for the end of the yard, here is a quick few pictures








**edit** I just looked at the pictures and ill throw out there that because the Camera Angle is lower, it may appear that there is ballast on the tops of the ties, there isnt lol. Ill have to take some pictures higher up next time