Steam...

[Tom]

That Bachmann 2-10-4 and the 4-8-4 you're looking at have identical chassis and frames, just different wheel arrangements.

Are you sure you like having the cab in the next county when it goes around a curve?

Ok, we get it by now Miles. YOU don't like running large locos on smaller radius curves, we know.

Now get off the cross, we need the wood.

[nachoman]

I have seen a Bachmann GS4 and a N&W class J (both 4-8-4s) go around 18" radius curves. While the overhang was annoying looking, it didn't look nearly as bad as the 2-10-4 in your photos. My opinion was that the passenger cars looked worse.

[COMBAT]

That Bachmann 2-10-4 and the 4-8-4 you're looking at have identical chassis and frames, just different wheel arrangements.

Are you sure you like having the cab in the next county when it goes around a curve?

Do I like it, hell no, Do I have a choice for what I want... Sad but I guess for what I want I have to make tuff choices, the thing is, I still have not made one, at least not yet!

[COMBAT]

I have seen a Bachmann GS4 and a N&W class J (both 4-8-4s) go around 18" radius curves. While the overhang was annoying looking, it didn't look nearly as bad as the 2-10-4 in your photos. My opinion was that the passenger cars looked worse.

I too have seen some major overhang on passenger cars.. Some look so bad that you can not use the diaphram, <spelling.. they come with.

Again, scarifices may have to be made for what I want.. We will see. Someone was kind enough to volunteer to send me pics, but I have to wait till sunday for them. No big deal.

[eightyeightfan1]

A lot of the locos and passenger cars mentioned are designed to navigate model railroad curves of 18" and 22" radii.
Granted, they don't look protypical(or real), with the hellish hangovers, and trackside clearances maybe a problem. But they will still run. If anyone wants that protypical look of large locos and cars going though curves, you would need a radius of 48" or larger, and unless someone inherited a warehouse, or have a huge basement space free of the stuff need to keep the house warm, the cloths cleaned, and an stairs to get to the basement, they are quite impossible to achieve.

I have the Rivorossi Big Boy, and I designed a 30" radius curves into my layout. Believe it or not, the Big Boy still overhangs when going through the curves. Not as bad as if it was a 22", but still noticable.

[Russ Bellinis]

There is a Southern Pacific 4-6-2 that has been restored and is running in occasional excursion service. I just don't remember where, Northern California comes to mind; but I'm not sure. If you must have a model of a prototype used in excursion service in the Pacific Northwest, then the choice is easy. There are only 2 steam locomotives that fit the bill, either the 4449 Daylight or the SP&S 700. The U.P. 844 and Challenger may have operated over U.P. tracks at one time or another in the Pacific Northwest, but I don't know for sure. I don't know of any other steam engine that has run in any sort of excursion in the Pacific Northwest in the U.S. I know nothing about Canadian steam operating in BC. The Gs4 4449 is made by both Bachmann and MTH. the 700 is not offered in plastic as far as I know. I don't think you could run brass even if you found one at a reasonable price because the brass models I've seen make no compromises to run on small radius curves. I suspect that a 4-8-4 in brass would not even stay on the tracks trying to negotiate a 22 inch radius.

Someone mentioned a couple of pages back that the 4449 was repainted in BNSF colors for an employee special operating in the Northwest. Are you sure they didn't bring the 3751 North for that special? I'm not saying that the 4449 could not have been painted in BNSF colors. It is owned by the city of Portland, Oregon not the S.P. or the U.P. so any deal cut between Portland and the BNSF is possible.

[COMBAT]

Thank you for the information. While we have been discussing this I have been looking around and trying to find what fits my requirements. I did find these two

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.broadway-limited.com/products/BLI_5063_GE_AC6000CW_CP_9800_High_Ditch_Lt_Golden_Beaver_Scheme_HO-4552-1771.html">http://www.broadway-limited.com/product ... -1771.html</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.broadway-limited.com/products/BLI_5064_GE_AC6000CW_CP_9801_High_Ditch_Lt_Golden_Beaver_Scheme_HO-4553-1771.html">http://www.broadway-limited.com/product ... -1771.html</a><!-- m -->



Now I know that neither of them are steam but I couldn't pass up the price, $204.00 for BOTH with decoders shipped! They are normally $189.00 each.... PLUS decoders.

I also saw this while I was shopping.....

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/PCM_SP_Cab_Forward_AC_12_4_8_8_2_HO-1763-1.html">http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog ... 763-1.html</a><!-- m -->

I like the look of it, a lot, but I do not know much about it. How did they get the coal to the engine if the cab is in the front. :? Sorry, I know NOTHING about steam.

The price of that one is crazy too.

What is the difference between that one above and this one here? I know the other is brass but half the cost????

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/SP_Cab_Forward_AC4_5_HO-1851-1.html">http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog ... 851-1.html</a><!-- m -->

ANOTHER CONCERN, This one says 22" recommened. I like the look but I am affraid of the 22 recommended Radius they list.
Recommended Minimum Radius: 22"

Thanks for the continued advice and putting up with me on my quest for STEAM!

[Tom]

The SP 4-8-8-2 Cab Forwards (the museum right up the road in Sacramento has the only remaining example) is an oil fired engine, so getting the oil up to the firebox isn't a problem, just runs through a series of pipes. A col fired cab forward would likely have been impossible. The reason articulated locos will do smaller radius curves is because they are articulated, hinged between the two sets of drivers. The boiler overhangs even on the real ones in curves, so that IS prototypical.

If you like Northwest articulateds, might I suggest looking at this one?

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://store.modelpower.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1245">http://store.modelpower.com/index.asp?P ... rodID=1245</a><!-- m -->

They are SWEET little runners and are DCC ready. They are big but run on 22" curves like clockwork. AND Great Northern is a Northwest Prototype.

[COMBAT]

WOW, That is good to know. I had no idea thats how it worked! Thank you for the information!!

[Fluesheet]

Hey Combat,

In case you're curious, the reason behind the "backward" design of the cab-forward locomotives was due to the Southern Pacific's numerous and long tunnels and snow sheds. The extended confined space made it difficult for the crew to breathe with the exhaust in the "normal" leading position...

It's amazing some of the very poor working conditions men put up with not 50-60 years ago...

Matt

[COMBAT]

I saw that on the extreme trains program. He didnt say how they powered the steam engine during the show so I always wanted to know about that. Thanks!

[LynnB]

Combat I have many large steam engines and they all run well on 22" and less. Keep in mind your layout will probably have many long stright aways as well as curves.Bachmann makes a good engine for the price and BLI makes an awsome sound equiped engine well worth the money.

[nkp_174]

Combat,
I have a Bachmann GS-4 and a Spectrum J (also a 4-8-4). I have never had any problems with either of them on 22"R curves. I had tunnel portals on 22" curves and never experienced a problem. Frankly, I've never seen a model railroad curve that I didn't think looked stupid...because they are always WAY too sharp. I do prefer wider curves...but I'd have no problem running a 4-12-2 around 22" curves if I didn't have space for wider curves...and I'd enjoy it!

The tightest curve a Van Swearigan berk could handle in real life is 288'...which works out to around 40" in HO. You will find no curve anywhere close to that on a standard gauge, mainline railroad. Further, those berks could negotiate tighter curves (by far) than any 4-8-4s. Not only did they have a shorter rigid than almost any 4-8-4 ever built, but they were also equipped with lateral motion devices.

Having eye witnessed mainline steam locomotives negotiating their min curve radii...it is a sight to behold. I have seen flexible piping break. Another common one is for a locomotive to slip like you didn't believe to be possible...even if it is only pulling itself. One such incident (I wasn't there) was when the NKP 765 (the 3rd most prolific excursion locomotive in the US) easily negotiated a wye, followed by the N&W 611 (a huge 4-8-4) nearly unable to make it around the wye. I've seen the Milwaukee Road 261 (a 4-8-4 which has hauled BNSF employee appreciation specials) slip itself silly on the wye at Hinton, WV. I'm sure that anyone else on here with much experience around excursion locomotives has similar stories.

Here are a few locomotives (off the top of my head) that may interest you:
-As mentioned, their are 2-3 Southern Pacific 4-6-2s in the bay area which run. I don't think that they're USRA engines...so they probably aren't available in plastic/die cast.
-Southern Pacific 4449...aka the Daylight...which was painted up for BNSF during one of the times she pulled BNSF employee appreciation specials. She is available in every scale on the cheap side of brass
-SP&S 700...a roundhouse mate to the 4449 (Portland, OR). She was restored in 1990...but I don't think she's pulled any BNSF E.A.Ss...suffers from being available in brass only...also a 4-8-4.
-AT&SF 3751...San Bernadino, CA's finest resident. I believe she's been used on the BNSF EASs....a 4-8-4...available in plastic/diecast
-the two UP engines...but you mentioned that you aren't interested in them (but available in plastic).
-Frisco 1522...a very fine group with the worst of luck...1986-2002...don't know how close she is to USRA...which B-man offers in plastic.
-The CP Royal hudson ought to exist in plastic, but doesn't. ---deleted reason why she is parked to avoid arguments---
-The Soo Line 2-8-2 and 4-6-2

A Burlington 2-8-2 did operate at Grand Canyon RR...as did a couple LS&I 2-8-0s...but they've been parked recently.
The Illinois RR Museum picked up a Burlington 4-6-4 a few years ago in supposedly operational condition...but I don't think she's run. They also have a Russian Decapod which I've seen run...B-man offers one in plastic.

Perhaps the best candidate after the 4449 is IHC's 2-6-0. While they offer here in 200 or so roadnames, she's actually a model of a Southern Pacific locomotive. One of them is running in Colorado. She's a cheap model...but looks great and runs well.

Typically, for mainline excursions, a locomotive needs to be a 2-8-4, 4-8-4, or a 4-8-2. 4-6-2s don't have the tractive effort to pull major excursions...2-8-2s are too slow with a long enough train...but 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s are great for operating on lesser routes (such as shortlines). The lone 2-10-4 which I can recall having been run as an excursion engine, suffered from having too small of drivers for the task (an AT&SF 2-10-4 would be great...or a C&O/PRR if any were left ). Hudsons would vary...the biggest would be fine for mainlines, the smallest might stuggle with the trains. Engines bigger than 4-8-4s (or the N&W 611) are too big for anyone but the actual railroads to run due to operational restrictions. Railroads can run whatever they'd like...as evidenced by the Challenger, N&W class A, and N&W class J (J's are some of the biggest 4-8-4s...and have MANY operational restrictions). That is why there are typically two classes of restored locomotives: big, mainline steam (261, 844, 765, 3751, etc) and smaller steam (the 4-6-2s, 2-8-0s, 0-4-0s...)

[COMBAT]

Here are a few locomotives (off the top of my head) that may interest you:
-Southern Pacific 4449...aka the Daylight...which was painted up for BNSF during one of the times she pulled BNSF employee appreciation specials. She is available in every scale on the cheap side of brass
-AT&SF 3751...San Bernadino, CA's finest resident. I believe she's been used on the BNSF EASs....a 4-8-4...available in plastic/diecast

Perhaps the best candidate after the 4449 is IHC's 2-6-0. While they offer here in 200 or so roadnames, she's actually a model of a Southern Pacific locomotive. One of them is running in Colorado. She's a cheap model...but looks great and runs well.

WOW, Thank you for all the info. I have a few questions....

In regards to the Southern Pacific 4449...aka the Daylight, is that the same one I posted pictures of made by Broadway Limited? I like the black look of that engine.

Next question, the AT&SF 3751...San Bernadino, CA's finest resident, what is this? You said available in plastic/diecast, by who?

You mentioned you own a Bachmann engine. I do not have anything from them. What are they like for details and equiped with? I am looking for DCC, sound, smoke, good runner and a lot of DETAILS!! Brass is to much so that gives you an idea of what prices I am looking for.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It is appreciated!!!

[nkp_174]

The 3751 you'd like is probably BLIs. [url]http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/AT_SF_4_8_4_HO-1852-1.html
[/url] This is a blueline loco, so you need to pop a decoder into the socket. It comes equipped with sound.

Bachmann standard makes one that is DCC equipped. (I don't know if they one sound equipped). http://www.ehobbies.com/bac50803.html?ut...gn=froogle
It is numbered for a later class of 4-8-4s than the 3751. Old Bachmann steam engines were not very good. Throughout the 1990s, they worked to move their line from being poor runners into first class models. The 4-8-4s of the end of the decade looked like the engines from the start of the decade, but ran fairly well (though they didn't pull that great). Their Spectrum 2-8-0 launched the modern era of steam locomotive models...being the best detailed, smoothest running, and best puller of any steam locomotive in plastic up to that point. This is not a spectrum locomotive, and accordingly, doesn't have that same level of detail. It is probably the budget option between the two.

The Daylight from Precision Craft: http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/...764-1.html
PCM is the corporate sibling of BLI.
Bachmann offers her in post-war black...which is important, because it is the easiest to convert to the BNSF scheme she wore. This locomotive is acceptably detailed and runs okay...although I'd suspect the PCM version is better. If I really wanted her painted up for BNSF, and didn't want to repaint a locomotive, I'd get one of Bachmann's, use a pencil eraser to remove the tender's lettering, add stripes from Woodland scenic dry transfers, and drop a logo onto the tender.http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-50203
MTH, in O scale, is the only model of her factory painted as BNSF 4449.
Here is a photo gallery of BNSF 4449: http://www.photosbystevenjbrown.com/stea...elite.html

The reason for the paint scheme is simple enough: the Daylight crew have pretty good relations with BNSF. Therefore, they probably painted her as an act of good will. The 765 did the same thing in the 1990s...having a few details changed, dawning C&O paint, and becoming C&O 2765...as an act of goodwill towards the then friendly (and very helpful) CSX. In the 765's case, her home road, the NKP, is a part of the NS system...so dawning C&O paint made her a part of the family (rather than being somewhat of a rolling billboard for a competitor). Same thing with the Daylight...the SP is part of the UP family...so running in non-UP family paint is similar. Such acts are nice gestures...and they drive foamers (of other railroads) mad.