DCC and "Seasoned" Brass Locomotives

[P5se Camelback]

After reading and re-reading Kevin Krey's "Can't Program Locos" thread several times over a week or so, I'm still sure that I want to go DCC ...

... however ... I have a couple of questions. :?

A) I lean towards Digitrax as that is what many people I have spoken to have (as does the local model railroad club nearby) and there would be local, hands-on support, should I need it ... well ... when I need it.

B) I have about seventeen older brass locomotives (produced between 1958 and 1989) and have had someone tell me I should forget them as far as DCC is concerned and get some modern plastic DCC-ready diesels.

Ahhh ... Uhn-uh! That's not going to happen! I've spent a "model railroading lifetime" acquiring the All-Camelback Motive Power Roster for my beloved Lehigh Susquehanna & Western and that is what I'm going to use! Not to mention all of my rolling stock, the LPB's vehicles, everything, is all 1930's vintage! If it just means that it will be more difficult because my locomotives are old and have open-frame motors which will have to be changed out ... well, so be it! 8-)

The railroad will be operated primarily by me, alone, but one or possibly two others might be able to join in on the fun without us stepping on or falling over each other. All this talk about the pluses and minuses of the Zephyr have me thinking ... maybe I should save up a little more and get the next model up.

After all, it'll be a while before I need it anyway ... benchwork won't even get started until after the Challenge is complete and then I really feel obligated to finish up the "Building a Small Fleet of Very Small Cabooses" thread before I get hyper-focused on building benchwork.

Any knowledgeable input will be welcomed.

[Puddlejumper]

I'm not positive since I haven't done the conversion, but if you isolate the motor from the frame and/or the pick ups from the frame I believe all of your brass locos can be successfully converted to DCC, and will perhaps run better on DCC as well.

I would think that some simple processes, such as using plastic Kadees or plastic coupler boxes to isolate the couplers from the frame, and wrapping the motor in electrical tape and using silicone instead of metal screws to mount the motor to the frame would be enough to make the locos candidates for hard wired decoders for DCC.

Dave

[Charlie B]

Bil, I use the Prodigy Advance, and I love it, but if I had a second choice it would be NCE. I would also use NCE or TCS decoders, for non-sound units. I have two units with digitrax decoders, and they work OK, but programing them can only be done in the program track and to me this seems to really slow things up too much. I like decoders that can be set up on the main so you can instantly see what you are doing. Changing address, on the program track is OK, but when you are adjusting start voltage, kick start, top voltage and other running functions it is nice to see if you are going the right way. As for sound I would go with Lok-sound, or QSI.
Charlie

[nachoman]

I kinda face the same problem - I have no intention of having more than one operator at a time, and my layout is small enough that DCC would not add much unless I wanted sound or fancy lighting functions. It's up to you to decide whether DCC is worth the trouble. People will suggest that you visit a layout that has DCC so you can try it out, and that is probably good advise.

That said, there really is no reason those old brass steamers cannot be converted to DCC. But, you are going to have to figure out how to do each one, as you will not be able to simply "plug in" a decoder. The most complicated step will be to isolate the motor from the frame. In some cases, that may require a new motor. I have heard, but have no personal experience, that the biggest problems with DCC on older brass steamers are:

1) Older open frame motors that don't respond well on DCC;
2) Poor electrical pickup, with the tender and locomotive picking up electricity from opposite rails, instead of the loco and tender picking up electricity from all wheels.
3) Minor short circuits between pilot and trailing trucks and the loco frame that only cause a tiny spark on DC, but will cause a DCC system to reset.

All of these problems are correctible, and if you have the patience and confidence in your troubleshooting abilities, the results could be worth it. But unless you want sound, special lighting effects, multiple operators, or have a large layout that would need many blocks and toggle switches, your money and time may be better spent on scenery, structures, or rolling stock details. That's just my opinion, though.

[Gary S]

biL, I don't think it would be that difficult to convert the locos to DCC. Still, that's just a guess, as I don't have any old brass locos. Basically as mentioned above, the motor leads have be connected only to the gray and orange wires of the decoder. In other words, the track power cannot be connected directly to the motor. Track power goes to the black and red decoder wires. It is okay to use the chassis as part of the circuit, as long as the isolation just mentioned is observed. As an example, on P2K diesels, the chassis is used as one of the conductors to get track power to the decoder. The question for your brass locos is "how easy will it be to isolate the track power from the motor leads?"

You mention Digitrax, I have had my Empire Builder for 5 years with no problems. Programming is fairly easy. The drawback to the Empire Builder is that it doesn't read the CVs in the decoder. You have to keep records of what yuo have programmed.... not a bad idea in any case though.

[doctorwayne]

I'm not very conversant on DCC, but if some of your older locos are driven directly off the motor shaft (many were) and use a steel worm with a brass worm gear (it was often also the final drive gear, directly on the driver's axle), then you'll have a direct connection between the track and the motor. A possible fix would be an idler-type gearbox, with plastic gears.

Wayne

[RobertInOntario]

I'm deciding against DCC at the moment, mainly because of the cost. I have a good dozen or more older locos (from the 1960s and '70s) that I run on my layout. I think some of these would be very hard to convert to DCC. I also have several newer ones (made in the 2000s) but it would still be costly to convert them. If I were starting from scratch, I'd probably go DCC but it's a little late at the moment.

I know some people strongly recommend DCC and I may consider this in the future, but for the time being I'll stick with DC. For a future layout, I'll probably track down a "DCC guru" to help me.

Just my thoughts!

Rob

[nachoman]

I'm not very conversant on DCC, but if some of your older locos are driven directly off the motor shaft (many were) and use a steel worm with a brass worm gear (it was often also the final drive gear, directly on the driver's axle), then you'll have a direct connection between the track and the motor. A possible fix would be an idler-type gearbox, with plastic gears.

Wayne

Wow, that's a good point. I never thought of that. That would definitely energize a metal motor frame (from the worm, to the shaft, through the motor bearings, to the motor frame). But, not all motors have one of the poles grounded to the frame. One could probably solve this problem with a new motor.

[Steamtrains]

I have converted an older brass 4-6-2, and wasn't all that satisfied with the results....Those open frame motors really do put on quite a load on the decoder and they're not so hot on preformance either. If I were to do it again (and probably will.... ) I'd swap out the motor. If you have a good bunch of locos, make the layout DC/DCC, that way you can run your brass on DC, and the newer engines on DCC. This'll give you a chance to convert at your own pace, and be easier on the pocketbook...

[MasonJar]

biL,

The brass locos can be converted. As noted above, it may be as simple as a strip of electrical tape, or may require remotoring/regearing. I've talked with our DCC guru at the club, and he advised that you simply take your time and be careful and methodical about it. He has converted everything from vintage brass to "PC Brand" (a Canadian supermarket Christmas set built by Mehano) successfully to DCC both with and without sound.

As far as Digitrax goes, I do like their system - I have a Zephyr and a UT-4R, and the club uses a combination of virtually everything Digitrax has built to run the set-ups. I am not a fan of their basic decoders - better to go with TCS for those. However, their new sound decoders show promise as they can be loaded with custom sounds. I currently have one going into a Bachmann 2-8-0 in combination with a Soundtrax mega-bass speaker, and I like what I hear.

Northwest Shortline might be a good place to look for ideas on updating the electrical in those old steamers.

Andrew

[P5se Camelback]

Well, it seems as almost all of the people whose opinions I respect the most have weighed in on to DCC or not to DCC. Much “sound’ advice has been offered and there is one of the main reasons I would go DCC … SOUND!

I put an on-board sound module in a customer's locomotive back in the ‘70’s. I think it was from a company called “Miniatronics” or something like that. It had a mask on the back of the main driver that had a pie-shaped wedge cut out of it so the wiper that collected power for the chuff module from that wheel synchronized the chuff with the side rods. There was a module for feed water pumps, and a few other sounds … it was pretty cool for the time! I brought a bunch of the electronics modules for my Reading I10s Consolidation, my first piece of brass (not a Camelback but a very fat boiler and a Wooten firebox.) I never got to put it in … got new industrial design job, had to pack everything, leave the hobby shop and move my life to South Carolina and NCR. But hearing those sounds … I just always wanted those sounds on my railroad.

Now comes DCC, a new way of putting power to the rails, double-heading, maybe … no throwing block switches, park two or three locos on the same track (why not, the prototype does it!) But there are so many choices and some changes must be made to my locomotives. O.K., I do want to use my Camelbacks, it's been one of the driving forces since the very beginning when the LS&W was jsut a dream in my head! So now I’ll have to “suck it up” and do the work, make the changes. It will happen one at a time … for many reasons.

… such as using plastic Kadees or plastic coupler boxes to isolate the couplers from the frame, and wrapping the motor in electrical tape and using silicone instead of metal screws to mount the motor to the frame would be enough to make the locos candidates for hard wired decoders for DCC.

I realize that I will have to re-motor … I knew that from the beginning – it’ll make my iron horses run better, and that’s a good thing. But why must it be foam tape and electrical tape? Why do I never see the use of a plastic (non-conductive) motor mount?

… People will suggest that you visit a layout that has DCC so you can try it out, and that is probably good advice. … Older open frame motors that don't respond well on DCC … Poor electrical pickup, with the tender and locomotive picking up electricity from opposite rails, instead of the loco and tender picking up electricity from all wheels. …

I have plans to visit the local club layout, which is all Digitrax … and watch things run (maybe even join? :?: And once again, I will be replacing the open frame motors with proper can motors.

… The question for your brass locos is "how easy will it be to isolate the track power from the motor leads?" … I have had my (Digitrax) Empire Builder for 5 years with no problems. Programming is fairly easy. The drawback to the Empire Builder is that it doesn't read the CVs in the decoder. You have to keep records of what you have programmed.... not a bad idea in any case though.

O.K., thanks for that “heads-up” … I appreciate it, Gary! And I have heard good things about the Empire Builder.

… I'm not very conversant on DCC, but if some of your older locos are driven directly off the motor shaft (many were) and use a steel worm with a brass worm gear (it was often also the final drive gear, directly on the driver's axle), then you'll have a direct connection between the track and the motor. A possible fix would be an idler-type gearbox, with plastic gears.

Now there is something I had not considered! I knew that the motor would have to be changed out, but I had not thought about metal gears. I’ll have to look, but I have a sneaking suspicion that some of my brass pieces have a nylon worm … If I could put a nylon gear on the can motor that might help!

… If you have a good bunch of locos, make the layout DC/DCC, that way you can run your brass on DC, and the newer engines on DCC. This'll give you a chance to convert at your own pace, and be easier on the pocketbook.

The only locomotives I have are the fifteen or sixteen (or seventeen … I forget, and they are all repacked so as to lessen the “People Who Hoard” TV show look.*) I bought them as they were released, saving up money for them in between releases – there was no other way to get a Camelback!)

… The brass locos can be converted. As noted above, it may be as simple as a strip of electrical tape, or may require remotoring/regearing. I've talked with our DCC guru at the club, and he advised that you simply take your time and be careful and methodical about it. … As far as Digitrax goes, I do like their system … a Soundtrax mega-bass speaker … I like what I hear.

I keep going to the Soundtrax site and listening to the Light Steam and Medium Steam sound samples … I like what I hear, too!

I have been given the number of the local club DCC guru and he has agreed to talk with me about the situation … I’ll have to wait and see how that goes.

And I must say that I appreciate all of the input from all of you ... really!

* That remark still hurts ... I just didn't see it as funny! Sorry!

[BR60103]

Bil:
If your motors are the open frame type with a V shaped spring holding the brushes and there is a tube of insulation where it pushes on one brush ....
all you need is another tube of insulation to do the other brush. The take off the original wire and hook the decoder motor wires to the brushes and the other wires to wherever.

Still won't compensate for rotten motors and assorted short sources, but...

[P5se Camelback]

Thank you, David. I shall keep that in mind.

This next week, I will be unpacking at least one of my RDG I5c Consols and going to see the local clubs DCC guru ... I called him tonight and we'll probably get together at the club on Thursday.

[Steamtrains]

I used a small piece of the smallest diameter shrink tubing to do as BR suggests....

When folks say to isolate the motor, what they really mean is isolate the BRUSHES....

[woodone]

Lots of information here.
Some thoughts on DCC- You can convert Brass locomotives to run on DCC. Some MUST be re-motored! Some times the gear box must be changed.The Amp draw on some older motors is just too high for decoders to work with these high amp motors. Something that you have to watch out for is- The locomotive is brass and it is a conductor. So if you have a wheel or any other thing the makes contact with the locomotive you could have a short. You need to take you time and make sure that there are no sneak paths anywhere. You did not say anything about sound decoders. Are you thinking about any sound installs? Sound installs are a little more difficult to do. Also one of the biggest problems on brass locomotives is LIGHTS! Most times you will find 1.5 volt light bulbs in them, and you must drop the voltage to them to keep them from going poof! You will have to add some type of voltage regulator on the install to operate them.
Sounds like you are still wondering about a DCC system. If you are a single user and want a very easy system, you should take a look at a POWER CAB from NCE. You said that there was a club near by that used Digitrax. Do you belong to that club? If you do then you might be better off going with Digitrax.
But if you are using the Zephyr system you will need to get a serrate throttle, this will let you have a hand held throttle to use at home with your Zephyr system, and you can unplug the throttle and take it to the club and you will have your OWN throttle to use on the clubs system.