TPBO

[Brakie]

Ed,Love it!

BTW.When its built can I come and play?

You guys got my juices flowing and I am rethinking about redesigning Slate Creek.

[Justinmiller171]

Is the middle track at the end of those plans going to be a storage track?

[steinjr]

Is the middle track at the end of those plans going to be a storage track?

Not likely - looks like he will need that piece of track as work space while switching the industries.

Smile,
Stein

[FCIN]

Ed,Love it!
BTW.When its built can I come and play?

Thanks Larry and yes you can come and play! Don't think we live too far apart..

You guys got my juices flowing and I am rethinking about redesigning Slate Creek.

This thread seems to have accomplished what I was hoping for - to get my juices flowing again too.

In spite of having a bunch of "Honey-do's" today, I have managed to get some of the track temporarily down on the layout and hope to finish putting enough down tonight to try things out. Always gives you a better feel for how things will be then to just stare at it on a piece of paper. Already it appears that I have more open space then it looks like on the plans. Still have a couple other ideas bouncing around in the old head - but this may be just fine.

[FCIN]

Is the middle track at the end of those plans going to be a storage track?

Nope. Stein is correct - that is main track of the spur and that would need to be clear in order to work the two tracks at the end of the spur.

[Justinmiller171]

Is the middle track at the end of those plans going to be a storage track?

Nope. Stein is correct - that is main track of the spur and that would need to be clear in order to work the two tracks at the end of the spur.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant a storage track for cars that are being switched, good thing you have one of those or else switching would of gotten alot more tricky!

Do you plan on having an interchange track?

[FCIN]

Do you plan on having an interchange track?

Not on this plan Justin.

This represents a mid-west flavor industrial spur that is switched by crews coming out of a nearby yard and not a separate short line, although I still like that concept, being the short line lover that I am!!!

[Justinmiller171]

Ed, I really like your plans but they don't "Flow". I would rearrange the industries so they aren't too close together, I would also give some of the spurs an angle so it doesn't look as straight.

[FCIN]

Ed, I really like your plans but they don't "Flow". I would rearrange the industries so they aren't too close together, I would also give some of the spurs an angle so it doesn't look as straight.

Justin;

Not sure what you mean by "Flow". I just finished laying out all the track as it appears on the plan and it looks pretty spaced out to me - more so than it would appear on the plan. I don't want anything to be closer to the left side of the plan then about least 8 feet to the first turnout to allow plenty of room to work the first industry. Being a former railroader, I always tend to look at track lengths in scale lengths and how much clearance you have.

As for angling some of the spurs so that things don't look so straight, I'm modeling something like this:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.11...8&t=k&z=18
By the way, I was considering modeling this spur, but when I studied the trackage, realized very quickly that in many cases, you'd have to pull all your outbound cars and put them on the main line in order to work it. Something I could not do.

If I angle anything at all, it would pretty much have to be the Coca-Cola spur and it needs to be long enough to allow them to move cars as they are unloaded. Same for the feed mill. If the track can spot two covered hoppers for unloading, then the length of the spur must be a minimum of four car lengths to the clearance point.

I'm looking at possibly making the "main track" form a very broad "S" curve through the length of the run, but will have to see how that would effect the industries. That may or may not work out, but I'll see. There is nothing at all wrong with an industrial spur being straight with the industry spurs parallel to the "main" - pretty commonplace.

I would like to have at least one structure on the layout that has an angled wall to fit the track. Might throw in the storage track I mentioned previously and have it room next to an abandoned or no longer rail served structure.

[Justinmiller171]

Not sure what you mean by "Flow"

I meant that the most of the track on your plan is parallel to the table edge and when I wrote that I was thinking of the industrial parks I have seen where most track is at some sort of angle.

I am still fairly new to modeling switching layouts and I have never visited an Industrial Park in Real-Life, The only Switching areas I have visited have been along a branch-line where the tracks are more spread apart. Sometimes I forget How Real Industrial Parks Are laid out .

[FCIN]

I meant that the most of the track on your plan is parallel to the table edge and when I wrote that I was thinking of the industrial parks I have seen where most track is at some sort of angle. ...

Okay, gotcha.

As I mentioned, I'm looking at possibly making the "main track" sort of swing back and forth the length of the benchwork in a broad "S" curve configuration, which might work okay. When sketching out potential track plans, I usually experiment with angling the main track or putting in a very broad curve here and there so it won't run parallel to the edge of the benchwork, but sometimes that will not work with the proposed structures.

I wish I had the available space where I could have a couple of industrial tracks actually run out from the main track 90 degrees as you often see. But unfortunately....

Anytime you're doing a shelf layout, you have to make a lot of concessions. Several lines I've considered modeling because they are so interesting, would have to have the track configuration modified so much, it would lose its character completely and have little resemblance to the prototype.

Every layout I've ever built (but never got beyond the point that I could start operating it LOL) was based on an actual short line or portion of another railroad. I tend to get really hung up in trying to duplicate actual track arrangements and then get disgusted when I can't make it fit right.

Stop and think about it, a 1/4 mile (1320 ft) in HO scale is just a hair over 15 feet. I've spotted cars at real industries where each track in the industry was 1400 feet in length or longer. To model something like that you really have to compress things unless you're building your layout in a vacant warehouse.

I will no doubt be making a lot of changes to my basic plan. I already see that I'm going want to add the 6ft staging track as in version 2 of my plan. If I do that, then I'll be able to space things out more or even add another track or two without it looking congested. This part of the layout designing is fun! I'm about to put a pair of feeder wires to the track and start experimenting with operating this.

[steinjr]

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant a storage track for cars that are being switched, good thing you have one of those or else switching would of gotten a lot more tricky!

A storage track is a place where you store cars you won't be need for a while (days, weeks, months, maybe even years, if something bad happens to the economy). Work space is wherever you can temporarily leave some inbound or outbound cars during switching. You tend to need some work space somewhere to switch switching industries.

Smile,
Stein

[steinjr]

Every layout I've ever built (but never got beyond the point that I could start operating it LOL) was based on an actual short line or portion of another railroad. I tend to get really hung up in trying to duplicate actual track arrangements and then get disgusted when I can't make it fit right.

Stop and think about it, a 1/4 mile (1320 ft) in HO scale is just a hair over 15 feet. I've spotted cars at real industries where each track in the industry was 1400 feet in length or longer. To model something like that you really have to compress things unless you're building your layout in a vacant warehouse.

Hmmm - for whatever it may be worth, one observation I have made while working on various track plans is that for H0 scale switching plans, a good ratio when doing selective compression seem to be about 1:4. I.e. a prototype 28 car train will be represented by a 7 car train in H0 scale. A 1400 foot (15 foot in H0 scale) track will be represented by a 3-4 foot long track on the layout.

Not a general rule for all kinds of model railroading, by all means - if you compress something so it gets shorter than 3-4 car lengths, it will tend to look too small. And if you try to model a place where many objects are longer than a half a mile (i.e about 8 feet in compressed H0 scale), it will tend to get too long for most modest sized room layouts. But for H0 scale switching layouts, 1:4 seems to work reasonably well as a quick rule of the thumb.

Also, one neat trick I have seen (e.g. on pictures of Chuck Hitchcock's former Argentine Industrial District Railroad, or on Ralph "car floater"'s layout) for doing those tracks that curve away from the main track is to put those industries on small peninsulas that stick out into the aisle. Ralph in particular got a very neat idea with slanting narrow peninsulas instead of peninsulas located at 90 degrees to the layout.

Not sure if that is applicable to your layout. Looking forward to seeing what you will end up doing!

Grin,
Stein

[Brakie]

Not sure what you mean by "Flow"

I meant that the most of the track on your plan is parallel to the table edge and when I wrote that I was thinking of the industrial parks I have seen where most track is at some sort of angle.

I am still fairly new to modeling switching layouts and I have never visited an Industrial Park in Real-Life, The only Switching areas I have visited have been along a branch-line where the tracks are more spread apart. Sometimes I forget How Real Industrial Parks Are laid out .

Guys,If I may..

Justin, Railroads have a habit of not "flowing" track that is a LDE(Layout Design Element) we modelers use for our track..A close study of track on a Bing map will show that railroads use curves only when necessary..

As far as industries being close together on Ed's plan..

Think of being 1/87th walking from industry to industry and you will soon note those industries isn't that close. Our 1:1 eyes doesn't scale model distance all that well since we can take in the whole scene on a ISL and small loop layouts.

The modern ISL design follows prototype track designs unlike older ISL track plans which in most cases is based on what I would call a spaghetti bowl design which left very little working room..

Of course that means changing thoughts on the old way of designing a ISL.

There is 2 books I recommend "How To Design A Small Switching Layout" and "8 Realistic Track Plans for Small Switching Layouts" both books are by Lance Mindheim and well worth a fireside study on a cold winter's night.

[FCIN]

Stein;
That's a pretty ratio to use for compressing tracks, structures and trains in HO. But like you, I would be careful to not compress anything down to a size where it looked too small or worse yet, wouldn't work. That's one of the biggest problems I've seen on far too many switching layout plans you tend to find - switching leads or tail tracks too short or the horror of all horrors, the switch back industry arrangement!

one neat trick I have seen (e.g. on pictures of Chuck Hitchcock's former Argentine Industrial District Railroad, or on Ralph "car floater"'s layout) for doing those tracks that curve away from the main track is to put those industries on small peninsulas that stick out into the aisle. Ralph in particular got a very neat idea with slanting narrow peninsulas instead of peninsulas located at 90 degrees to the layout.
Not sure if that is applicable to your layout. Looking forward to seeing what you will end up doing!

Wish I could do that, but just isn't room. Would sure make things more interesting, and having one or two industries that curved or angled off the main benchwork would really allow me to have a couple more industry tracks.

I completed temporarily putting down all the track as shown in my basic plan during the night, put one pair of power feeders on it and have been doing some switching on it to get a general feel for how the layout will operate. Even though everything is fine operationally, I'm already seeing that I need to make some refinements and may relocate an industry or two. Maybe add one more, if it won't make things look to crowded.

I do know that if I go with this plan and theme, I'm for sure going to add the separate 6 foot staging track. Just don't like the "feel" (and look) of the train already on the spur when you start an operating session. Could live with it, but it just doesn't feel right to me, at least not for this type of operation. Would be fine if it was set up to be a separate short line or industrial railroad like what Jack Hill is doing.

Was enjoyable to actually operate it. Didn't make up an actual switch list for this first test run, but simply staged the loco with 5 inbound cars and just placed, pulled or re-spotted cars that "felt right". Just working the container plant and placing and pulling a car from each of the other tracks - it took well over an hour. I'll make up a couple of switch lists later today or this evening and have a couple of real operating sessions before I change anything. Should give me a better feel for things and allow me to see where there are potential problems.