TPBO

[FCIN]

Think of being 1/87th walking from industry to industry and you will soon note those industries isn't that close (...)

Funny you should mention that Larry. More than once this morning while doing my first test run of the layout, I found myself thinking "How long would it take me to walk from that switch to the head end?" or "How long would it take me to walk that cut of cars I just spotted and tie down the hand brakes?" And one other point too; time does not scale! So if I was 1/87th my size and really working the ground on this small layout, it would have probably taken 3 or 4 hours to switch this spur.

There is 2 books I recommend "How To Design A Small Switching Layout" and "8 Realistic Track Plans for Small Switching Layouts" both books are by Lance Mindheim and well worth a fireside study on a cold winter's night.

I too highly recommend both of those books - especially if prototype operations is something new to you. I also ordered his newest book "How To Build A Small Switching Layout" to see what nifty things he may have in that one. Haven't got it yet, but should arrive Monday and am looking forward to seeing his latest book. As far as benchwork, and wiring that's all old hat to me, but I am interesting in his track laying, scenery and structure methods.

[Brakie]

Ed,3-4 hours sounds about right even with 3 men on the ground.It takes time to walk(say) ten 50 foot car lengths-that's around 500' or what about 1/10 of a mile? Yup time doesn't scale well.

I have often thought about taking a HO or N Scale ruler and actually measuring my ISL in HO or N Scale feet and then thinking of being 1/87th or 1/160th and walking that distance...I have no doubt its a lot farther then our eyes can relate since we see real feet and inches and not scale feet..

IMHO when one operates on a ISL one should allow for walking,setting ,releasing a handbrake unlocking a switch and opening or closing a derail.

Another thing that has happen and slowed us down was a truck would be blocking the pickup and we had to wait for the driver to move the truck-of course I am talking about older urban industries that was built before the coming of the truck.

[FCIN]

IMHO when one operates on a ISL one should allow for walking,setting ,releasing a handbrake unlocking a switch and opening or closing a derail.

Same here, have always done that to some extent. Even waiting a few seconds between moves makes it more prototypical and really does make the layout seem larger.

Speaking of derails, I'd like to have operating ones on the layout at some point. I know someone makes them or at least as detail parts that could probably be modified to work. I know that I had some at one time, but haven't found them in any of the boxes or piles of stuff yet.

What I was doing this morning was taking a drink of coffee between moves. The few seconds it takes to set down the throttle - pick up the coffee cup - take a drink - set the cup down - and pick up the throttle works just great. For a bit longer time period, go fill up the coffee cup. Of course you can always take your 20 minute lunch during a session too! Also discovered that since I've been replacing all my plastic wheels with metals ones I often have to chock the wheels to keep a car from rolling off spot! That added a few seconds too. I used little inch long pieces of 1/16th balsa wood.

Lance Mindheim has touched on doing things like that in one of his books and in some of his magazine articles so people are beginning to get the word and put these things into practice. No need to take it to the extreme, but you sure don't just slam into a cut of cars - flip the reverser - and blast off!

[Brakie]

What I was doing this morning was taking a drink of coffee between moves. The few seconds it takes to set down the throttle - pick up the coffee cup - take a drink - set the cup down - and pick up the throttle works just great. For a bit longer time period, go fill up the coffee cup. Of course you can always take your 20 minute lunch during a session too!
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Have we met or are we related?

As I've mention in the past the majority of my layouts has been ISLs and finding ways to extend operation time I have taken coffee and lunch breaks like we did on the PRR.

IMHO as the cost of the hobby continues to raise I feel the ISL will be the layout of choice for those with limited hobby funds and I fully believe Lance is sitting the new ISL design standards and helping modelers understand the joys of a ISL and not to mention a ISL is a scatchbuilder's and super detailer's delight.

[Gary S]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I am enjoying this thread. Thanks for all the info and thoughts.

[FCIN]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I am enjoying this thread. Thanks for all the info and thoughts.

Gary;
I didn't know where this thread would go - if anywhere - but it has succeeded in getting me motivated enough to actually start doing something. In that regard, I'm tickled pink. Still have a way to go, settling on that "final" plan/theme for the layout - but at least now I'm seeing what will or won't work AND I can operate something!!!

Have we met or are we related?

Larry, your mother isn't named Margaret by chance is she??? Actually, I think we are related in so far as both having worked in the industry at one time and both like model railroading...

IMHO as the cost of the hobby continues to raise I feel the ISL will be the layout of choice for those with limited hobby funds and I fully believe Lance is sitting the new ISL design standards and helping modelers understand the joys of a ISL and not to mention a ISL is a scatchbuilder's and super detailer's delight.

I'm in total agreement with you on this one. I think we all at one time or another, dreamed of having that basement size layout with 1000 feet of main line run, etc., but more often than not it will never happen or if you actually start something like that and don't have plenty of help - you quickly find it's too much for one person to complete and maintain, not to mention the rising costs in the hobby.

I'd love to replace a lot of my older cars with the better detailed ones that are available today, but ain't gonna happen! All I'm doing is replacing the plastic wheels with metal ones and making sure all the cars have metal Kadee couplers on them. When actually operating my equipment, I get so engrossed in the operations, I really don't pay any attention to the fact that one car has separately applied finer details and the one next to it has the older molded on details.

Long before I ever saw the work being done by Lance Mindheim and before finding this forum I'd began downsizing my model railroad plans. Short lines have always been my thing and I've always been on the hunt for very small operations that could actually be scaled down and modeled almost in their entirety but in a small space.

The really neat thing about a small switching layout is it's something you can actually get to a stage of completion in a short amount of time, doesn't require a lot of space, can be built to take with you if you must relocate frequently and you don't have to win the lottery to afford to build it.

There are also many different themes that can be done in a small space. These are all themes I have considered (and still are) all based on real life experiences:
- An small short line connecting to a Class I road and serving just a couple of customers
- A town or outlaying location on a Class I road with several industries were an engine and crew are stationed and your inbound/outbound cars are imagined to have be set off/picked up by through freights
- A single large industry that requires several different types of cars and has numerous car spot locations (in my case a large bourbon whiskey distillery)
- Industrial spur serving several industries

The possibilities are almost endless...

[FCIN]

Little evening update here...

This afternoon and this evening, I operated what I'll call two "formal" operating sessions on the current layout theme. I made up switch lists for each session - the first one with 5 inbound and 5 outbound cars and every industry/track was worked and the second one with just 2 cars inbound and 3 outbound and only two of the industries were switched. Had a ball!!!

The first session took 90 minutes to complete and the second session 20 minutes. And this was without doing anything other than operating at prototypical speeds and waiting at most about 5 seconds between moves (my brakeman and conductor are both young and can work fast!). So operation wise, the plan is working out just fine.

Being able to actually operate the plan is clearly showing me where refinements/changes need to be made if I go with this plan. I would want to put the staging on a narrower shelf as in Version 2 of this plan so that the train could actually come off the "Main Line" and on to the spur. The positions of the Temple-Inland and Coca-Cola plant switches may need to be swapped, or maybe the locations of the Coke plant and the team track should be swapped, etc.

I've also wondered about the possibility of combining both of those industries in to some larger industry with two tracks? Right off hand, I can't think of an industry that would receive a lot of box cars (an absolute must), tank cars of HFCS and possibly covered hoppers too. Just wouldn't want to have to dead line a bunch of my cars and purchase a fleet of new cars, because I don't have the right cars! Maybe someone on here knows of or has thoughts about what sort of facility might do that.

Operating this is also showing me that you don't really need a large layout to have enjoyable operating sessions that take a reasonable amount of time to complete. Even a layout as small as the one Lance Mindheim builds in his newest book (http://www.lancemindheim.com/upcoming_books.htm) would be fun to operate. That layout is only the length of a standard hollow core door (80 inches) with a short staging track off to one side and yet it would probably take you at least 30 to 45 minutes to operate. Heck, maybe I should look at the possibility of an even smaller layout footprint myself and free up some space down here. Decisions, decisions!

More input and ideas are welcome guys

[Justinmiller171]

I can't think of an industry that would receive a lot of box cars (an absolute must), tank cars of HFCS and possibly covered hoppers too. Just wouldn't want to have to dead line a bunch of my cars and purchase a fleet of new cars, because I don't have the right cars! Maybe someone on here knows of or has thoughts about what sort of facility might do that.

A bakery? It could take in boxcars of ingredients and ship out what it bakes, It could take in HFCS for the sweets it produces and it could take in Hoppers of flour.

[Gary S]

Gary; I didn't know where this thread would go - if anywhere - but it has succeeded in getting me motivated enough to actually start doing something. In that regard, I'm tickled pink. Still have a way to go, settling on that "final" plan/theme for the layout - but at least now I'm seeing what will or won't work AND I can operate something!!!

Well, it is working on me too! I'm ready to do some operatin'!

This afternoon and this evening, I operated what I'll call two "formal" operating sessions on the current layout theme. I made up switch lists for each session - the first one with 5 inbound and 5 outbound cars and every industry/track was worked and the second one with just 2 cars inbound and 3 outbound and only two of the industries were switched. Had a ball!!!

Glad you had some fun, and that your enthusiasm is back on.

Even though my layout is pretty big with 180 feet of shelves, I consider it to be an ISL, well, maybe we could say it is three ISLs with trackage between them and staging at each end. That's why this thread has me so interested - always enlightening to listen in on guys who actually worked on the railroad when they are discussing this stuff.

[Gary S]

Oh... did want to throw this in...

For me, I don't think I will be doing all the time-consuming stuff like pumping up the brakes, waiting for the train crew to walk the tracks to the switches, all that. I'm mostly interested in the train movements, so I will compress all the items above when operating. I suppose I want to throw out all the mundane aspects and keep the fun stuff. May be less realistic, but nothing wrong with that.

[Brakie]

Gary,What you call mundane aspects is all part of every day railroading however,its a part we can chose to do or chose not to do.

Being a former brakeman I know all to well how much time it takes for a simple pickup and setout.This is a feature I like to emulate in order to extend operation time on (in my case) a small ISL.

Another thing I like to do is to have my crew arrive as a light engine move and only need to pick up 1, 2 or 3 cars, some days they may arrived with 1-3 cars.
other days the crew may have heavy work to do and still won't switch all the industries.

The important thing is to delovope a ISL operation plan that pleases you.

[FCIN]

Oh... did want to throw this in...

For me, I don't think I will be doing all the time-consuming stuff like pumping up the brakes, waiting for the train crew to walk the tracks to the switches, all that. I'm mostly interested in the train movements, so I will compress all the items above when operating. I suppose I want to throw out all the mundane aspects and keep the fun stuff. May be less realistic, but nothing wrong with that.

Well with a 180 foot long layout, I'd suspect it takes a while to operate without needing to throw in much of the little extras!

About all I'll do on a regular basis, will be to have a crossing or two that you'd have to stop and flag, derails on some of the tracks that would have to actually be opened and probably a gate that would have to be opened at one facility and of course just waiting for a couple of seconds before you move after coupling/uncoupling. Other than that and just taking your time seems to work just fine. Just having to following the switch list and figuring the most efficient moves to make takes time in and of itself.

A bakery? It could take in boxcars of ingredients and ship out what it bakes, It could take in HFCS for the sweets it produces and it could take in Hoppers of flour.

That's a possibility, but not sure what they'd be receiving in box cars other than maybe packaging materials (I'm thinking in the modern era here). Probably wouldn't ship out much in box cars either, but is possible. Big drawback here for me is that unless they are producing their own flour from bulk wheat, etc., flour is shipped in AirSlide or other type pneumatic/pressure differential discharge covered hoppers and I don't have any!!

Maybe I need to look at the ingredients of some Frito-Lay products and see what they make that might fit with my car fleet...

[Justinmiller171]

A bakery? It could take in boxcars of ingredients and ship out what it bakes, It could take in HFCS for the sweets it produces and it could take in Hoppers of flour.

That's a possibility, but not sure what they'd be receiving in box cars other than maybe packaging materials (I'm thinking in the modern era here). Probably wouldn't ship out much in box cars either, but is possible. Big drawback here for me is that unless they are producing their own flour from bulk wheat, etc., flour is shipped in AirSlide or other type pneumatic/pressure differential discharge covered hoppers and I don't have any!!

I think they still ship bags of grain in boxcars, I think a bakery would also receive various frostings other and ingredients in boxcars.

Oh, and If you need Airslide hoppers I found some for you:http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Walthers-...240556.htm

[Gary S]

Gary,What you call mundane aspects is all part of every day railroading however,its a part we can chose to do or chose not to do.

Being a former brakeman I know all to well how much time it takes for a simple pickup and setout.This is a feature I like to emulate in order to extend operation time on (in my case) a small ISL.

I have to agree completely. I can see that the size of the layout could require different aspects of operations to be stressed, as in your example of a small ISL and needing to extend the operating time.

[Gary S]

Just having to following the switch list and figuring the most efficient moves to make takes time in and of itself.

That's the part I like too. Although I haven't actually worked from a switch list, but from waybills and car cards. Still got work to do on all that.