TPBO

[FCIN]

Another thing I like to do is to have my crew arrive as a light engine move and only need to pick up 1, 2 or 3 cars, some days they may arrived with 1-3 cars.
other days the crew may have heavy work to do and still won't switch all the industries.

Ah yes, that's where the operational variety comes in to play!

Just because your layout has 5 industries doesn't mean that you would switch each one of them every operating session. Or if you have an interchange with another road and your interchange holds 5 cars that doesn't mean that every time you operate, you'd get 5 cars in and have 5 cars out. Of course you can sure do it that way, but doesn't work like that out there in railroad land.

When I worked for the F&C and the distilleries were in production (making the hooch), we might have 40 cars delivered to us by the L&N on Mondays because of the weekend build up, but the rest of the week maybe half or a quarter that many per day. When the distilleries weren't in production and only shipping out - we might run light to one of them or just take a couple of empties for loading and come back light or with only a handful of cars.

Some of your customers may be traffic heavy and require switching on a daily basis - even several times a day - but others might may only ship or receive cars once or twice a week - maybe only once or twice a month. Other customers are seasonal and may only ship/receive certain times of the year. Rural grain elevators or produce shippers being a examples of that.

[Brakie]

A bakery? It could take in boxcars of ingredients and ship out what it bakes, It could take in HFCS for the sweets it produces and it could take in Hoppers of flour.

That's a possibility, but not sure what they'd be receiving in box cars other than maybe packaging materials (I'm thinking in the modern era here). Probably wouldn't ship out much in box cars either, but is possible. Big drawback here for me is that unless they are producing their own flour from bulk wheat, etc., flour is shipped in AirSlide or other type pneumatic/pressure differential discharge covered hoppers and I don't have any!!

Maybe I need to look at the ingredients of some Frito-Lay products and see what they make that might fit with my car fleet...

As I mention I have a Pillsbury batch plant.Process flour will arrive in Pillsbury covered hoppers,cartons,and 100 pound bags of various flavorings(chocolate,cherry,blueberry etc) will arrive in boxcars and sugar arrives in covered hoppers.Outbound shipments is truck to various grocery distributors.

I like the idea of a potato chip manufacturer since potatoes can arrive in boxcars.

[Russ Bellinis]

When I worked in Los Angeles Harbor, there was a petroleum company across the street from the container terminal where I worked. There were probably 6 or 8 large tanks for various petroleum products spread out in an area taking up perhaps 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile. they had a small area on one side where they loaded tanker trucks and trailers if I remember correctly, but they received their product by rail, all refined petroleum, no evidence of a refinery on the property. The company was either a Penzoil or Quaker State facility, and they also had a small warehouse where they received oil in case lots on pallets. The pallets came in by boxcar, but bulk oils came in by tank car. There were two spurs across the street from our terminal with the valves and manifold to unload the tanks between and to one side of the spurs. Both boxcars and tank cars used the same tracks, but never at the same time. Also there was no room to pull empties and set out loads (all product shipped out of the facility went by truck). I think it was a distribution center where oil products would be stored and delivered to local stores or warehouses for distribution to stores. When the railroad had loaded cars to set out, they would drop the loads one day. The next day they would show up to pick up the empties. If they had a cut of tank cars and a cut of boxcars to unload, that would be at best a 2 day job, but only if the tank cars could be dropped in the morning and the the empties picked up that night, and then the boxcars dropped the next morning and picked up the next night. More typical was a 3 day job where one type of car would be dropped one morning, picked up the next morning and the other type dropped that afternoon, and empties picked up the next morning.

[Russ Bellinis]

Guys,If I may..

Justin, Railroads have a habit of not "flowing" track that is a LDE(Layout Design Element) we modelers use for our track..A close study of track on a Bing map will show that railroads use curves only when necessary..

As far as industries being close together on Ed's plan..

Think of being 1/87th walking from industry to industry and you will soon note those industries isn't that close. Our 1:1 eyes doesn't scale model distance all that well since we can take in the whole scene on a ISL and small loop layouts.

The modern ISL design follows prototype track designs unlike older ISL track plans which in most cases is based on what I would call a spaghetti bowl design which left very little working room..

Of course that means changing thoughts on the old way of designing a ISL.

There is 2 books I recommend "How To Design A Small Switching Layout" and "8 Realistic Track Plans for Small Switching Layouts" both books are by Lance Mindheim and well worth a fireside study on a cold winter's night.

About 4 years before I retired in 2004 Carrier-Transicold got heavily involved in railroad refrigeration. The railroads had been running all electric refrigeration units made by Trane, and powered by gensets using 3-53 detroit diesel engines for power. The gensets did not have auto start-stop capability, so they ran and burned fuel whether the reefer was down to temp and cycled off or not. By the 1990's Carrier and T-K had perfected microprocessor controlled units that would be started by hand, then when the unit achieved set temperature, they would shut off. If the temperature came up in the box, the microprocessor would initiate a start cycle where the unit would automatically preheat the intake manifold for a few seconds, then crank the engine. As soon as the engine fired, the unit would run for 10 minutes or until the temp came back down (whichever was greater to allow the batteries to be recharged), and then shut off. The railroads decided to try these truck units on railcars. An example is the ARM U.P. car that Intermountain came out with recently or the new Trinity Reefer that BLMA is coming out with.

Obviously they could not bring a rail car to the shop for repairs to the refrigeration unit, we had neither space nor tracks, so I was sent to the rail yard about 1/4 mile from the shop to work on any reefers that failed and were under warranty. We had flat rate time standards that stated how much time Carrier would pay for me to do specific jobs on the units. These time standards included 1/2 hour to set blue flags, and pick them up afterwards. They did not include the time that I might need to sit at a yard throat waiting for an incoming or out bound freight train to clear so that I could cross the tracks. Typically, the car I needed to work on was in a cut of 30 or more cars on a double ended yard track. That meant that I had to place a blue flag at each end of the cut, and I could not drive to either end of the cut, I had to park where ever I could find a safe place to park and walk over rough ground to place those flags at both ends. Generally the 1/2 hour allowance was used up just setting the flags. I used to get "writer's cramp" explaining on work orders why it took me 3-4 hours to change a fuel filter or belt that was a 15 minute - half hour job! The dummies that wrote the flat rate standards sat in offices at the factory and presumed that the railroad would ALWAYS set out the car that I needed to work on all by itself on an easily accessible track where I would just set a blue flag at each end of the car! Needless to say, that never happened.

[hyawn]

Maybe you could use this switch lock from <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.summit-customcuts.com/turnoutlockcontrol.html">http://www.summit-customcuts.com/turnou ... ntrol.html</a><!-- m --> to control the turnout off the main and possibly use one or two as a derail lock. The unlocking and locking of the derails would add a little extra time and would be prototypical. Just a thought

[FCIN]

As I mention I have a Pillsbury batch plant.Process flour will arrive in Pillsbury covered hoppers,cartons,and 100 pound bags of various flavorings(chocolate,cherry,blueberry etc) will arrive in boxcars and sugar arrives in covered hoppers.Outbound shipments is truck to various grocery distributors.

I like the idea of a potato chip manufacturer since potatoes can arrive in boxcars.

I just posted a thread about another really interesting industry that I located and perfect for an ISL. http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic...=24&t=3731 and not your run of mill type industry too! So at this point in the planning process, I'll probably just stay with the Temple-Inland and Coca-Cola facilities on the plan. Heck, the Coca-Cola plant could also be just a HFCS transfer facility, although such facilities usually spot far more cars at any one time then I'd want to on my layout.

As noted in the thread, there are also two nice model railroad size facilities right across the track from this one - sort of a bonus!

Any way, back to doing some more layout plan refining!

[Justinmiller171]

Ed, I just visited your thread about that Industry, and As I was browsing the area using Bing, I was surprised to discover that one of the industries nearby requires a switch-back to get into

I guess there really is a prototype for everything hock:

[FCIN]

Ed, I just visited your thread about that Industry, and As I was browsing the area using Bing, I was surprised to discover that one of the industries nearby requires a switch-back to get into

I guess there really is a prototype for everything hock:

Justin;
I've looked over this area several times and don't see anything that I'd call a switchback. Just a couple of spurs running in the opposite direction from the majority. And of course you have a run-around on that one spur and plenty of room at the end of the spur to work the other one.

Yes, you can find them now and then, but where they do exist, you'd have enough length on your tail track to work it, unlike what you often see on the model railroad track plans.

[Justinmiller171]

Here it is:


I double-checked and it is a switch-back, but as you said there is plenty of room on the tail end, unlike many model railroads.

[FCIN]

Here it is:
I double-checked and it is a switch-back, but as you said there is plenty of room on the tail end, unlike many model railroads.

Okay, I see it now, was looking at the industrial spur going down to the Bridgestone/Firestone plant and not along the L&N (CSXT) main line.

Yep, plenty of room to work that building - looks like you could clear 6 or 7 - 50ft cars and a loco on the tail. Probably at one time there was a switch at each end, but railroad removed it for whatever reason. Railroads don't like to install switches or have to maintain them if they aren't needed. They'll pull a switch from an industrial track that is no longer used and put it some place else.

The old Southern Railway (NS) yard in Harrodsburg, KY, is actually accessed by a switchback move (along with a couple of other locations on NS around here). There is only one active customer and an occasional team track car set out there now, so NS removed the switch at the east end of the original siding.

**** EDIT **** EDIT ****
Justin;
I just remembered a spot on an industrial spur that you might find interesting and really does fit the "there's a prototype for everything" line... Take a close look at this location: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=33.97...4&t=h&z=19 The facility (Metal Coaters of Georgia) holds one coil car at a time and you'll note that you'd have a tough time pulling and spotting cars in there. But there's a trick involved here - The company does their own switching with a TrackMobile that you can see in the photo and in street views.

[Brakie]

Ed,Here's my thought..I wouldn't worry about that switchback unless I was modeling exact..

[FCIN]

Ed,Here's my thought..I wouldn't worry about that switchback unless I was modeling exact..

Actually wasn't considered that facility that Justin found, but a person could put something like that on a layout. I haven't used switchbacks for any reason since I got over the 1:20.3 logging railroad kick I was on some years ago!

[Brakie]

Ed, OneI thing I hate more then pot burned coffee is a industry located on a switch back when a car spotted at the industry on the trail track has to be moved before switching the other industry..I don't like 2 industries on the same industrial siding either.

Maybe I am a odd duck but,I perfer larger industries that looks like they need rail service...

Those industries you are planing are jewels in the crown.

[FCIN]

Ed, One thing I hate more then pot burned coffee is a industry located on a switch back when a car spotted at the industry on the trail track has to be moved before switching the other industry..

For sure!!! Add to that tail tracks that only allow you to pull/place 1 car at a time, when the industry holds more than 1 car! The switchback industry configuration you talk about is the horror of all horrors in track plan design! Unfortunately, it's pretty commonplace on published plans as there is that old mentality that you must introduce puzzles in the plan to have "operation", which even on the smallest ISL's you don't need.

I don't like 2 industries on the same industrial siding either.

I don't mind having 2 industries on the same siding or spur - IF it matches a prototype configuration I'm trying to duplicate and you don't have to compress each industry to the point that they could not support rail service. A 50ft box car looks a bit odd spotted at a 60ft long warehouse.

Maybe I am a odd duck but,I perfer larger industries that looks like they need rail service...

I like to have large industries too where possible - at least one that can spot 4 or more cars. Of course if you're modeling a facility where cars must be moved by the shipper to load/unload them, then you must have the track capacity to move the cars and you won't be able to spot more cars then half the track capacity. My choice of the Trinidad Berham facility as one of my customers being a case in point.

And here is a slight update to my current track plan to include that facility:     Can't say that I'm completely satisfied with the plan or even the industrial spur theme, but it's coming along. Not sure about having replaced the team track with the building products distributor, but it looks to be workable. I do enjoy switching the temporary arrangement I currently have down on the bench work, so we'll see.

Note that I have included non-rail served structures on the plan as you talk about in your latest thread: http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic...=24&t=3734. Should make for an effective view block when entering the scene and switching the first two tracks.

[Brakie]

I like what I see especially the "concrete" canyon and the reverse move into the industrial complex.

Of course I like the industries you chose..