Pearl Harbor Remembered

[Gary S]

While it is true that "today's youth" are "tomorrow's grumpy old men", America is at a significantly different social, political, and cultural crossroad than it has been at before. The "prejudice" card and the "race" card have been played ad nauseum, to the point it no longer has value, akin to the little boy who cried wolf. Instead of making conclusions based on emotionalism, many in America have started using reason and logic to determine the proper course. Since the 1970's, the welfare state, the entitlement mentality, and "victimism" have served to deny equality in America rather than "level the playing field." Statistics don't lie, and prominent observers of society such as Walter E. Williams and Bill Cosby are pointing these things out. Hopefully the rest of our society will stand up and take notice.

American Servicemen at Pearl Harbor and in World War II gave their lives for individual liberty and individual responsibility, not for the tyranny of marxism, socialism, and communism.

[steinjr]

American Servicemen at Pearl Harbor and in World War II gave their lives for individual liberty and individual responsibility, not for the tyranny of marxism, socialism, and communism.

Gary -

Both you and BiL are most excellent model railroaders, whom I admire for your modeling skills.

But you are just plain crazy if you actually think that America is in any real danger of falling to the tyranny of "marxism or communism", in any normal meaning of those words.

Smile,
Stein

[ngauger]

I will chose to laugh that off as sarcasm, Stein!

I never cease to be amazed at the inability of so many younger Americans to think in complete sentences, use proper grammar, spell correctly and conduct themselves in a business-like manner when they interview for a job!

They don't even know how to make change behind a cash register if the damn terminal doesn't tell them how!

And they wonder why no one will hire them.

But English and math and history and science were all bull***t they "didn't need to know to get along in the world."

You can call me prejudiced if you wish ... no skin off my nose ... I earned good grades, went to college, earned a degree, worked hard, excelled, designed a lot of product to make life better and easier for a lot of people. I designed devices to assist in keeping those in the operation rooms of hospitals alive, I made a decent living, raised a family ... made a life I can now look back on with some satisfaction of knowing that over my career, I made a productive contribution to society.

I don't hold much hope for some of these fools coming along behind us! I have had contact with a couple who sincerely believe that, since they get money back at tax time, they haven't paid any tax! They're morons! They can't spell. They can't speak without using the "F"-word and gutter slang. And they wonder why they can't find a job that will pay them $100K a year so they can buy a Hummer with 20" rims!

They all have the same opportunity to go to school and learn ... they just choose not to take advantage of the opportunity that is handed to them, because they are "too smart for that waste of time."

I'm not prejudiced, just a realist. And as a veteran, I'm saddened by what is happening to the country for which I risked my life!!

Not prejudiced, "street Smart", yes.... I see the exact same thing every week.... It's both horrible and studious to watch too. Some, white, black, tan, green, pink, whatever race or creed, (no fences here, save maybe age) that sincerely "Don't get it".... Shame too. They grew up in an area where the Gov'mint did everything for their parents so, of course, they are "entitled" to the same thing.

Some actually have babies, knowing the more - the more money, not necessarily "the merrier"......

Some excel in school, but a lot of them are considered outcasts, Brainiacs, Butt kissers etc... But when the diplomas are handed out, guess who's working and who's on the Government ticket??

........... and yes, this was the same scenario (but worse now) 30+ years ago when I went to school....

[steinjr]

Some, white, black, tan, green, pink, whatever race or creed, (no fences here, save maybe age) that sincerely "Don't get it".... Shame too. They grew up in an area where the Gov'mint did everything for their parents so, of course, they are "entitled" to the same thing.

Some actually have babies, knowing the more - the more money, not necessarily "the merrier"......

Some excel in school, but a lot of them are considered outcasts, Brainiacs, Butt kissers etc... But when the diplomas are handed out, guess who's working and who's on the Government ticket??

No doubt. Some kids in some neighborhoods are pretty much a lost generation. Poverty tends to breed poverty, unless something or someone breaks the cycle.

But in what way is this related to what schools teach? BiL's original claim was (more or less) that schools didn't teach any American history any more, and that this somehow was Jimmy Carter's fault for creating a federal Department of Education. Which makes about as much sense as seeing "Marxists" under every bed.

Smile,
Stein

[Ralph]

Personally, I think political rants cheapen this thread's tribute to the men who died at Pearl Harbor. Respectfully remembering their sacrifice is one thing, appropriating it to advance our political causes is another.

It has been a tradition in the United States for generations to believe the county is going to hell in a handbasket. Forty years ago my parents saw demonstrations against the Viet Nam war, hippies advocating "free love", women burning bras, civil rights marches, protests of every kind..and thought it was the Apocalypse. America by nature of its diverse population has always been in a constant state of evolution and change, trying to define itself.

We won't always agree with each other about what the proper direction is but we do have the ability to express our opinions and vote our preferences...which is what the men at Pearl Harbor died for.

Ralph

[steinjr]

Personally, I think political rants cheapen this thread's tribute to the men who died at Pearl Harbor. Respectfully remembering their sacrifice is one thing, appropriating it to advance our political causes is another.

It has been a tradition in the United States for generations to believe the county is going to hell in a handbasket. Forty years ago my parents saw demonstrations against the Viet Nam war, hippies advocating "free love", women burning bras, civil rights marches, protests of every kind..and thought it was the Apocalypse. America by nature of its diverse population has always been in a constant state of evolution and change, trying to define itself.

We won't always agree with each other about what the proper direction is but we do have the ability to express our opinions and vote our preferences...which is what the men at Pearl Harbor died for.

Well said!

Stein

[Green_Elite_Cab]

No doubt. Some kids in some neighborhoods are pretty much a lost generation. Poverty tends to breed poverty, unless something or someone breaks the cycle.

But in what way is this related to what schools teach? BiL's original claim was (more or less) that schools didn't teach any American history any more, and that this somehow was Jimmy Carter's fault for creating a federal Department of Education. Which makes about as much sense as seeing "Marxists" under every bed.

Smile,
Stein

I think the point though, was that the "cycle of poverty" isn't going to end because some government act is going to come in and change the game. an individual's actions are up to themselves, especially in this country where people hate the government being on their backs.

Jimmy carter may not be to blame, and marxism as it is meant to be understood is probably not the conscious goal of most people, but their is no doubt that knowledge is key. how can someone make an informed decision without having a clue?

The sort of nonsense the education system in this country gets away with is outrageous. in my state of New Jersey, instead of failing and holding high school seniors, they were just giving them progressively wimpier versions of the "High school proficiency assessment" tests until it was asking the kind of questions meant for 12 year olds. When they passed that, the state claimed "Oh, look! we have a 98% graduation rate!". Keep in mind the wimpier test holds the same value as the regular one i took and burned my brain cells preparing for. When someone goes to get a job, it shows that they passed the HSPA, not that they only passed the dummy version (wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings!).

When the school system lets otherwise normal people pass who essentially failed all their classes, who can hardly read or do math to save their lives (those two really being more important than anything else they teach), it doesn't really help the country as a whole. The only reason they do this is so the school can say "look at all these failing students who turned it around and passed!" so they can get more state and federal money.

this isn't just a feeling, or a he-said she-said. I've PHYSICALLY seen the "dumb" tests. I also happened to be passing by that school on the day that test was being administered, and it wasn't a small group of people. I only just graduated in 2008, and i'm still in college, so i'm not all that disconnected.

There is definitely problems in this country. bottom line, there should be no lowering of standards in schools just so that people can pass, but it happens all the time.

[ngauger]

I guess I was only trying to make the point:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink.

no matter what teh schools teach or don' teach, it's up to the person themselves to gain the knowlegde. I've been to libraries plenty of times, been online a lot and have learned a lot. This was directly because of my uncle being in WWII (At Hickim Field in Dec 7) he witnessed "The first shots first hand.

So I've learned all i want to learn by continuing the skills that were taught to me in school... Researching and reading

Not too may people under 20 want to even make that sort of effort.. and it's a slap in the face to those who served in ANY war!!!! Anywhere!! For any Country!!

Also- the last survivor from WWI passed away recently, now there is no one to "Verify" what the historians want to change

[Brakie]

I read somewhere that Hitler was furious with Japan over the attack. Told them that they acted too soon and should have waited until Britain had fallen.

Coincidentally I heard the same information just the other week on a documentary about U boats. Up until Pearl Harbor he had ordered his subs to leave American shipping alone to avoid pulling us into the war with Britain. Apparently U boat captains who saw US ships as good targets were frustrated with the command.
Ralph

Indeed..Once war was declared it was open season for US merchantman that was boldly sailing solo along the East coast while being backlighted by the lights from cities along the East coast...As one U Boat captain said "It was a turkey shoot."

Then they took sub warfare into the Gulf Of Mexico where they had equal success in sinking tonnage.

Even our destroyer crews was ill train in sub warfare in the first few months in the battle for the Atlantic.The U boats would give them the slip by running around to the other side of the convoy..

[Brakie]

As far as history..

There was a lot of propaganda taught in History class when compared to reality..

Custer and the troopers of the 7th Cavalry was sacrifice at the Little Big Horn..You see the Sioux had warned us repeatedly to stay out of their Sacred Black Hills and our peace treaty agree that the Black Hills would remain the Sioux.We was warn should we enter those hills all of the plains Indian nations will gather to drive the white men out.

Yet,when gold was discovered prospectors rushed into the Black Hills and another factor was at play another continental railroad..The Sioux responded as promise..The plains Indians did indeed come together to "drive the white man out of the sacred land forever."
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Let's have a fun test.

Which great war chief beat the U.S Army to a stand still which forced the U.S Government approach for peace?

[Gary S]

My apologies to Ralph, who is correct to an extent.

But you are just plain crazy if you actually think that America is in any real danger of falling to the tyranny of "marxism or communism", in any normal meaning of those words.

the Wikpedia definition of Marxism is:

an economic and socio-political worldview that centers around a political ideology which seeks to improve society by implementing socialism with the final goal of communism. Originally developed in the early to mid 19th century by two Germans, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, Marxism is based upon a materialist interpretation of history. Taking the idea that social change occurs because of the struggle between different classes within society who are under contradiction one against the other, the Marxist analysis leads to the conclusion that capitalism, the currently dominant form of economic management, leads to the oppression of the proletariat, who not only make up the majority of the world's populace but who also spend their lives working for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, or the wealthy ruling class in society.

To correct this inequality between the bourgeoisie, who are the wealthy minority, and the proletariat, who are the poorer majority, Marxism advocates, and believes in the historical inevitability of, a proletarian revolution, when the proletariat take control of government, and then implement reforms to benefit their class, namely the confiscation of private property which is then taken under state control and run for the benefit of the people rather than for the interests of private profit. Such a system is known as socialism, although Marxists believe that eventually a socialist society would develop into an entirely classless system, which is known as communism in Marxist thought.

and that is dangerously close to the ideology that some of our politicians hold as evidenced by their actions. America has already been ravaged by the tyranny of socialism - and there seems to be no end of that, so perhaps in your statement above, substitue "aware" for "crazy".

The forum may be heading down a dangerous path here, even though the Lower Berth says "discuss anything...". I hope none of this leaves hard feelings amongst the wonderful folks of Big Blue.

[ezdays]

The forum may be heading down a dangerous path here, even though the Lower Berth says "discuss anything...". I hope none of this leaves hard feelings amongst the wonderful folks of Big Blue.

I totally agree, but having been on the staff of these forums and it's predecessors for going on ten years, I see where discussions like this do come up occasionally and usually in a very innocent way. It's somewhat astounding though, that we sometimes see a few people with the same ideology fighting over a word or two that seems to make their concept different than another's. Fighting over political or religious beliefs is a battle that leaves no winners but sometime a few scars. I'm hoping that we never have a discussion here that would leave any scars that don't heal over, or worse yet, hurt someone badly enough that they never recover from the fight and just walk away. A forum like this is like a second family and as such we are always open for discussions on most any "off topic" subject, but one of our greatest fears as administrators is that something gets out of hand where we need to step in and try to get things back on track. We don't like that because we prefer doing more pleasant things, plus we don't want to see anyone hurt of we certainly don't want to lose anyone from our "family"...

Remember, the subject of this thread was to honor those who gave their all so that we may live in peace. Let's enjoy that peace while we can.

[steinjr]

I think the point though, was that the "cycle of poverty" isn't going to end because some government act is going to come in and change the game. an individual's actions are up to themselves, especially in this country where people hate the government being on their backs.

Well, that is debatable. Not that some people passionately hate the federal government - that's pretty much a given. There is a lot of regionalism and skepticism against the federal government in the US.

But what is debatable is that that government projects and national laws always make little difference to individual's chances of success. That it is always up to the individual himself, and no one else.

Take things like the National Road. Establishing a national currency. Chopping back piracy in the Med. Opening up the far east to trade. The Homestead Act. The emancipation of slaves. The Pacific Railroad Act. The Federal Reserve. The GI bill. The Space Race. The Internet. The Staggers Act.

Obviously one can not legislate success for individuals. But a lot of the opportunities that today exist for individuals are due to things that was created by federal legislation and projects.

In my opinion - your mileage may vary :-)

but their is no doubt that knowledge is key. how can someone make an informed decision without having a clue?

There is no doubt that knowledge is important. And that there is a big difference between ignorance (which can be cured), and stupidity (which cannot be cured).

But it is hard to device a system that ensures that only people who "have a clue" make decisions, since we are not necessarily all in agreement about what "having a clue" means in various contexts.

When the school system lets otherwise normal people pass who essentially failed all their classes, who can hardly read or do math to save their lives (those two really being more important than anything else they teach), it doesn't really help the country as a whole. The only reason they do this is so the school can say "look at all these failing students who turned it around and passed!" so they can get more state and federal money.

It is a common problem of testing - how do you prevent some people from cheating?

The most obvious first attempt at a fix would be to give everyone the same national (or international) tests, send the tests to be graded elsewhere, and ensure that the people who grade the answers do not know where the test they are grading is coming from - maybe even to the level of not even knowing what state it comes from.

But it is really up to you guys how you want to tweak your system.

Smile,
Stein

[steinjr]

But you are just plain crazy if you actually think that America is in any real danger of falling to the tyranny of "marxism or communism", in any normal meaning of those words.

<snip>

"the confiscation of private property which is then taken under state control and run for the benefit of the people rather than for the interests of private profit."

And you actually honestly believe that nationalization of all private property is a realistic thing to fear in the US of A?

Smile,
Stein

[Brakie]

Getting back on topic.

Its debatable if Pearl was sacrifice.

Its a well known fact FDR wanted to enter the war against Germany but,the American people didn't.

Its a well known fact that we knew all the Japanese main battle carriers had disappeared and hours before the attack we knew where they was going to strike...

Why was the war warning sent by Western Union instead of a military message? Surely the Army,Marines,AAF or Navy had working communications.

There are other facts that points toward the U.S knowing a attack was highly possible a week before the attack.

Why was our carriers order out of Pearl?
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There's to many unanswered questions that will remain top secret for years to come.

After much research I fully believe that Pearl was sacrifice..