Pearl Harbor Remembered

[Gary S]

And you actually honestly believe that nationalization of all private property is a realistic thing to fear in the US of A?

All? Maybe not. Too much? Yep. The exact percentages are not important. 100%, 90%, 60%, 40% and even 30% are all leaning to the Marxist side of the spectrum and are therefore marxist in ideology. Forced redistribution of the fruits of an individual's labor is unjust.

[Sumpter250]

Getting back on topic.
The story,........ as heard by a young boy (me) who respected his Dad......

Its debatable if Pearl was sacrifice.
It was.
Its a well known fact FDR wanted to enter the war against Germany but,the American people didn't.
FDR wasn't keen on the idea, but Winston Churchill desperately wanted the U.S. in the War in Europe. When we declared war on Japan, as a result of the "sneak attack" on Pearle, Germany had no choice but to declare war on us, and we were suddenly "in Europe". The war effort also managed to get us out of "The Great Depression"........something which isn't working these days.
Its a well known fact that we knew all the Japanese main battle carriers had disappeared and hours before the attack we knew where they was going to strike...
The Australians were tracking the Japanese fleet, and were routinely updating Washington on the fleet's progress, and heading.
Why was the war warning sent by Western Union instead of a military message? Surely the Army,Marines,AAF or Navy had working communications.
Never heard that one explained.
There are other facts that points toward the U.S knowing a attack was highly possible a week before the attack.
Plenty of them, as I remember hearing.
Why was our carriers order out of Pearl?
By Executive order. The General responsible for Hawaii, was left "out of the loop", as was the Admiral, in charge of the fleet. Both officers, "took the fall" for what they had no idea was coming. I believe they have since both been exonerated, of any bad judgment
The ships in Pearle were manned at "Skeleton Crew" levels, also by executive order.

If one chooses to dig around in the History of United States "involvement" in many of the worlds "historical moments", one should do it, knowing full well, in advance, that they will find more than the ordinary number of 'Snakes In The Grass". The one thing that can be said about us, that generally holds true throughout our history, is that we tried to do the "right" ( as in morally, and ethically correct ) thing.
There are not always "men of good character", making our nations decisions.

That said, maybe it's a good time to remember the far-too-many good Americans who have died defending our freedoms, and back away from political debate here.
Any subject that raises "passions", quickly tends to turn ugly.
Let there be peace.
P.R.Juengst
CPO USN RET

[Gary S]

That said, maybe it's a good time to remember the far-too-many good Americans who have died defending our freedoms, and back away from political debate here. Any subject that raises "passions", quickly tends to turn ugly. Let there be peace.

P.R.Juengst
CPO USN RET

Thank you sir, for your judgment, and thank you for your service, which comes from the depths of my heart. I am extracting myself from the ideological discussion.

On the subject of Pearl, it doesn't matter what the circumstances were. The fact is that "every-day" American Servicemen, who knew nothing of whatever political maneuvers were being parlayed in Washington D.C., lost their lives on that day and they are worthy of our thought and respect.

[P5se Camelback]

I apologize to all ... I believe it was I who triggered this whole political discussion by posting a phonetic representation of the language I hear every day, and shake my head in sadness.

I am "up to here" with the changes that I've been witnessing, probably because I was not all that good of a student in high school ...

... flunked 9th grade, took it over again ...
... went to summer school to pass 10th grade ...
... was a perfect 100% five-out-of-five "F's" after the report card of 11th grade ...
... quite high school, worked as a baker's apprentice for the rest of the year ...
... was sent by my parents to a Private Parochial College Prep school to re-take 11th grade ...
... only passed one subject ...
... started 11th grade for the 3rd time back in public school (Dad made me beg the Principal to let me come back ...
... graduated high school the last name in a class of 268 with three D's and a F ...
... was kicked out of Art class for aguing with the teacher about how to draw a circle) ...
... did Fresshman year at Phialdelphia College of Art, partying my way to a GPA of 1.25 ...
... got drafted ... did 4 years in the Army Security Agency (Top Secret and Crypto Security Clearance) ...
... went back to PCA ... majored in Industrial design ... graduated at the very top (first name) of my class with a BSID.

I have been self-educating myself now, studying this country's history (from old books, not the new ones which have re-written history) and have become fairly knowledgable on the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and I'm now in my third reading of the Federalist Papers in as many years.

What gets me upset is how far we have been getting from the Constitution ... farther and farther over the last ten years ... it's angering to me and it appears to me, as a student of the history of this country, that we are headed in the wrong direction, especially over the past two year, with an apparent game plan straight from the pages of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals (Yes, I've read it twice.)

But I wish to end this discussion with this ...

Many men and women have died in the defense of the Inalienable Rights given us by our Creator, and the Freedoms granted us by the documents that we were we given by our Founding Fathers to help us govern ourselves as a Free People. I don't wish to see that ultimate sacrifice to have been given in vain.

Now let's leave this for another time and get back to discussing model railroading ... as Don ezdays said ... it's too easy for this topic to get nasty!

I apologize for setting it off.

I'm sorry!

[ngauger]

What gets me upset is how far we have been getting from the Constitution ... farther and farther over the last ten years ... it's angering to me and it appears to me, as a student of the history of this country, that we are headed in the wrong direction, especially over the past two year, with an apparent game plan straight from the pages of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals (Yes, I've read it twice.)

But I wish to end this discussion with this ...

Many men and women have died in the defense of the Inalienable Rights given us by our Creator, and the Freedoms granted us by the documents that we were we given by our Founding Fathers to help us govern ourselves as a Free People. I don't wish to see that ultimate sacrifice to have been given in vain.

Now let's leave this for another time and get back to discussing model railroading ... as Don ezdays said ... it's too easy for this topic to get nasty!

I apologize for setting it off.

I'm sorry!

Well Said!!!!

[FCIN]

No need to apologize Bil. There are millions of us out here that know exactly what you are saying and seeing every day. More and more people seem to be waking up and seeing the truth. Once upon a time we used to have free speech in this country, but that too is rapidly vanishing. I hate to get into any sort of political discussions and avoid them at all costs, but now and then you have to speak up about what is happening to our country!

My father served in WWII in the Pacific - Grand Father and two uncles in WWI. I served in Viet Nam and endured the hatred shown to us returning home. It disturbs me to greatly to think that all the men and women that died in all the wars we've had to fight may have done so for nothing! Sorry if that offends anyone.

[P5se Camelback]

... I served in Viet Nam and endured the hatred shown to us returning home. ...

I will never forget walking along the street from the Greyhound Bus Terminal to the Pennsy's Suburban Station in Center City Philadelphia to take the train out to my home in Wayne for a week's leave from from Ft. Devens, Mass., in uniform, and being spit upon from a passing bus as I waited to cross the street. The year was 1967, and if that pansy-ass twink had been down on the sidewalk I would have torn his mouth off and shoved it into his other noisemaker!!

... It disturbs me to greatly to think that all the men and women that died in all the wars we've had to fight may have done so for nothing! Sorry if that offends anyone.

As far as I'm concerned, no apology is necessary for that comment!

[Brakie]

Guys,As a 6 year veteran I am appalled at the way the Government treats us.

They send us to fight their stinking wars that nobody wanted other then the war profiteers...After we go and do their dirty work we are thanked by what? Cuts in the VA budget while billions is still being sent overseas...

Seems the politicians forget 90% of the veteran was at the bottom of the heap when they went in and still at the bottom of the heap and needs the VA more then anything not only for their physical and mental wounds but, for their health and medications as well..


Thank A Vet---Yeah,right by cutting the VA budget which means a veteran pays for part of his/her medication unless they are below the Government poverty level..

[Brakie]

I almost forgot.
-----------------------
For the answer to this question:

Let's have a fun test.

Which great war chief beat the U.S Army to a stand still which forced the U.S Government approach for peace?
----------------------------
That was Red Cloud of the Oglala Sioux..Not only did he beat the Army to a stand still he also got every fort along the Bozeman trail closed in the treaty.

The biggest battle was the massacre of Lieutenant Colonel William Fetterman's 80 man column..The very man that once boast he could take 80 men and wipe out every Sioux along the Bozeman.


Yet you will not read this in any history class book.

[doctorwayne]

An interesting read, Larry, about people fighting for their country and their freedom.

Wayne

[Gary S]

I'm not much of a world history buff, but it would be interesting to know how many countries today consist of the actual ancestors of the original "citizens" of the "country". I would not be surprised to find that most do not, and that a little bit of "conquest" had occurred. As for the original inhabitants of North America, I don't think "their country" is the proper way to consdier it... the various tribes fought and killed each other for territory, each considered the territory to be "theirs" and "conquest" was occurring long before the Europeans arrived.

docWayne, your thought does certainly lead one to ponder our place in the grand scheme of things.

[doctorwayne]

Granted, they may not have considered it a country as such, but it was pretty obvious that they considered it theirs.

In that vein, I'm not sure that remembering the fallen has the same meaning for everyone - do we remember our own who fell for what turned out to be an unjust cause, or an enemy whose cause was just but was defeated nevertheless? To the victors go not only the spoils, but also the right to determine who will be remembered, at least as far as history is concerned. I do, however, remember.


As for personal remembrances, right now I have none: simply a general feeling of gratitude for all those through the millenia who fell, either on the side of right or wrong, to place me here in this time and place, free to discuss topics such as this in a railroad-oriented forum. And that's about all I'll have to say on this topic.

Wayne

[Gary S]

One can come to the realization that, while we consider ancient humanity to have been uncivilized, perhaps we are not as advanced as we would like to think.

And that's about all I'll have to say on this topic.

You are always in my highest esteem, and your thoughts always cause me to think a bit further and deeper, which is a good thing. Thanks

[P5se Camelback]

There has been much discussed on this thread ...

... many of us have "said our piece" ...

... and a couple of us may have said too much ...

BUT ...

You are always in my highest esteem, and your thoughts always cause me to think a bit further and deeper, which is a good thing. Thanks

... Well-said ...

and ...

And that's about all I'll have to say on this topic.

... Well-said!



AMEN!

[Brakie]

I'm not much of a world history buff, but it would be interesting to know how many countries today consist of the actual ancestors of the original "citizens" of the "country". I would not be surprised to find that most do not, and that a little bit of "conquest" had occurred. As for the original inhabitants of North America, I don't think "their country" is the proper way to consdier it... the various tribes fought and killed each other for territory, each considered the territory to be "theirs" and "conquest" was occurring long before the Europeans arrived.

docWayne, your thought does certainly lead one to ponder our place in the grand scheme of things.

Gary,There was the Sioux,Cheyenne,Comanche and Kiowa was allies and the most feared of the plains indians..Their attack was swift and short.There game plan was for their enemy to chase them into a trap where the main force was waiting to pounce from all three sides and attacking from the rear would slam the door shut on any retreat while cutting off any reinforcements...Also knowing the "pony solders" guns would fire once they would attack in fast waves thus the hapless calvary was overwhelmed before they had a chance to reload..