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The following is meant for discussion and food for thought no more no less.
Let's discuss industries and how we should model them..
First thing first..
Freight cars.
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Many of us buy freight cars that we like,just gotta have or perhaps like in my case a love for boxcars especially the IPD short line cars that was numerous in the 70s and we end up with excess number of the same type of car then we really need.
However,wise modelers will only buy the cars that match their industries..
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Matching cars with industries.
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Matching cars with industries takes a lot of discipline and advance planning.As we design our layouts we should focus on what types of industries we want to serve or will we be focusing on-say-grain or coal? Then of course the bulk of our cars should be covered hoppers or open hopper cars.
However,
On my past ISLs I tried to keep a even balance of cars between boxcars,covered hoppers,coil cars,gons(with removable load) and tanks.To my mind that gives a variety instead of looking at those IPD boxcars.
But Larry,I already have a ton of freight cars.
Lucky you..You get to match the industries to your cars the biggest industry needing your most dominate type of car.
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Choosing industries..
Choosing industries is a personal thing but,I will share my ideas..
I fully believe the bigger the better..I just like Godzilla size industries that look like they actually need rail service.IMHO even 3 or 4 large industries on a small layout looks better then several small industries that looks like a 53 foot trailer would max out the receiving area..
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A highly debatable subject.
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Should we match industries-elevator to grain mill or grain mill to bakery?
IMHO no..Why? I fully believe off line inbound/outbound loads is superior..Why else would you need that Santa Fe or PRR boxcar?
Also this gives you a opportunity to rotate cars-in other words- no more "gee,there's that rusty B&O gon again".
However,there are exceptions like loads in/empties out between a mine and power plant.
Catch All
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The team or distribution (modern speak)track can be a life saver if you have cars with no where to go.A load of John Deeres can be off loaded at a team track as can a tank car,plastic pellets etc..
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The industrial siding
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A short word here..What we need to remember is the industry siding is privately own by the company that uses it.The serving railroad track ends at the derail.
For those of you that uses ETTs you can have fun adding operation notes to your ETTs.
Such as: Locomotives larger the the 600 class are forbidden to operate over the A.F.Stephens Corporation industrail track at MP.123.8
Larry
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Summerset Ry
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Thank you Larry. I always enjoyed your discussions.
Loren
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put a hundred thousand miles on my knees.
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Larry, you do make some fine points there.
I guess it depends on a lot of factors as to what we buy in rolling stock.
Granted..... a lot does have to do with that "I gotta have it", syndrome, that all model railroaders seem to possess. But a lot also has do do with what era we model.
Since rail traffic was the way to ship before and during World War Two, alot of rolling stock was needed, and more boxcars were used no matter the industry. In those days, boxcars were very versatile, in that they could haul everything from, grain, to car parts, to whole autos. Buying a lot of boxcars would be justified.
It is a known fact that spotiing a boxcar, at a grain silo in the steam era, wouldn't seem out of place, because some shippers would take a normal boxcar and put a piece of plywood in front of the doors, and then could load it with grain.In the late 1950's to present day eras, spotting a boxcar at a grain silo for loading, would give you that "What the ...." impression, as covered hoppers were developed for just that purpose.
Having a grain silo, in the Northeast, for a major bakery is plausible, and would give a destination for that boxcar, or later, that covered hopper.
Another factor in choosing the rolling stock is the locations that we model. If I was modelling Pennsylvaina for instance, I could either chose the coal or steel industry as a basis. If I'm modeling the Midwest, grain would be the the most common industry, or today it would be ethanol. In the Northeast, maybe heavy industry. Logging in the Northwest, Fruits and Veggies out of Californai and Florida, and oil from Texas, Louisiana. Having a lot of common rolling stock to ship from these areas is then justified.
Modeling a small town, with say, a small manufacturing base, even one large factory, would require the right rolling stock. Maybe coiled steeel rolls, come in on those hooded coil cars, and the finished product out in boxcars. But there are also the support products that could come in by rail. Chemicals, plastic pellets, maybe some heavy machinery, or small parts required for the finished assembly can come in boxcars. Lets not for get also, what it takes to support the town. Coal, oil, or heating fuel for powering and warming the houses. All seperate industries that could be modeled, and would require the specific rolling stock for each.
It also depends on what knda of operation we are modeling also. If I'm modeling a bridge line, or Class 1, having a lot of assorted rolling stock is good, so seeing that "rusty gondola" go by again can't be avoiided. But unit trains of coal, intermodal and grain would also be needed. The Bridgeline and Class 1 could also interchange with a branchline, whether modeled or imagined, making an interchange track another "industry".
Theres also that "Industry Not Modeled", which could justify the rolling stock we buy. Somewhere, off layout, in another part of our modeled worlds, is an industry that "needs" a partcular type of rolling stock.
In conclusion, having a lot of rolling stcok on our little tiny worlds, is only emualting what the real world of railroading holds.
And unless you're a "count the rivets" modeler, having a lot of different types of rolling stock, in no matter how many quantities of each, is your own decsision. Justifing it being on your layout, is only a matter of telling a believable story.
Torrington, Ct.
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One of the advantages to modelling small railroads in the early years is precisely what has been mentioned: any car you want is OK because railroads carried literally everything, and you can even create a few "custom jobs" of your own, a very common practice around the turn of the century.
Other than that, the ruling philosophy seems to be that you model the rolling stock suitable to the time and place of your choosing when constructing your layout, which means that many layouts come with severe self-imposed limitations. There is nothing at all wrong with that as it represents a high degree of realism; I just prefer the widest scope possible.
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I’ll throw in my own 2-cents worth…
While we always have to use some compression when modeling large industries, try & do it in a way so the industry at least APPEARS to be something that ships/receive loads by rail…in other words, how many 40’ boxcar loads can be shipped/received by a 50’ industry?
Even if you have to imply that there is a large industry beyond the backdrop or edge of the layout, at least model the RR shipping/receiving part (loading docks, storage tracks, etc) so that it looks like a serious RR customer.
Designing a layout with the “less is more” philosophy…paring down the number of industries…go with 2 or 3 industries instead of 5 or 6…this allows the industries to be larger, & incorporate more of the RR right-of-way. This is particularly effective with point-to-point/switching/shelf-style layouts.
Designing fewer but larger industries, gives you the potential to incorporate more track into individual industries…multiple sidings, some tracks going inside buildings, etc... This not only enhances the modeled scene visually, but allows for more rail traffic, variety of rolling stock, and really enhances the switching potential!
-Drew-
"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly."
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I understand your concept but I think it depends on the time and place you are modeling. For example, turn-of-the-century gold mining towns had many small businesses and starter industries and received everything by rail, while later into the 20th century industries became larger and more centralized.
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MM, you're absolutely right...until a fella named "IKE" came along and built the interstate highway system, there wasn't much hauled any distance by truck - trains did it all, for industries large and small - and rails ran everywhere with lots of branches, secondaries and industrial tracks. Then the trucks took a lot of LCL and door-to-door traffic, just as the airplane took much of the mail and time-sensitive shipment. The "service only to 100 carloads a week customers" is a result of route consolidation and intermodal methods. Not that long ago, it just wasn't that way - another reason for me to model earlier times. Bob C
James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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MountainMan Wrote:I understand your concept but I think it depends on the time and place you are modeling. For example, turn-of-the-century gold mining towns had many small businesses and starter industries and received everything by rail, while later into the 20th century industries became larger and more centralized.
I don't think we're in disagreement here...I concede I was thinking of a more modern scenario...the two industrial switching layouts I've built were both set in a 50's - 60's time frame...that's an era of railroading that's near & dear to me...
But let's use the example you presented...say a mining town set in say...1900...
This would be a great theme for a layout, for one reason, like you mentioned, everything, goods, people, mail, everything...moved by rail...
I would do like this...
I would build the layout as two distinct "vignettes" or scenes;
*The Mine -
The possibilities here are too numerous to list...anything from a single spur & a headframe to any number of buildings, equipment, &...tracks...
The only limits you would have would be space & time...
Empty hoppers would be broubnt in, & ore koaded out...(I don't have much knowledge about gold mining proceedures, but I would assume that like other types of mineral mining, additionall processing/sorting, etc, could be done at the mine site, or transported to a different site)
The Town -
The sky's the limit here too...anything from a few sleepy buildings to a huge, bustling boom town...
I know that in some instances, mining towns were built literally, right on top of the mine itself, but if it were me, I'd model the town as having been built up a few miles away from the mine...
A major feature I would include in the town would be a juction/interchange, which would be the mine's & the town's connection to the "outside world"...
This would be a major operational featurewhere the resorces from the mine were shipped out, & all other goods & passengers moved to & from the layout...
A depot would be needed here, for both passengers & freight, & a cool feature would be a local or railbus that takes miners to & from the mine...
Within the town could be any number of potential rail customers, & rail sidings would be needed for them to have access toshipping/receiving...once again, more great switching potential within the town itself
-Drew-
"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly."
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The "poster town" for what you have outlined was Cripple Creek, Colorado, which at it's zenith had no less than eight railroads serving it in one way or another and an electric tram line connecting various mining districts.
High-grade gold ore was originally shipped to refineries in Florence, Colo., until it became more practical to refine on site after which gold bars were shipped out as well as silver. (the silver ingots were stack four to five feet high and left on the depot loading dock in plain sight, waiting to be picked up!) The best part was that at an altitude of ten thousand feet, Cripple Creek provided almost nothing that it needed, thus requiring everything from whiskey to timbers to tools to clothing to food to furniture to heating coal to be shipped in by rail, and people had almost no viable option but to travel the same way.
The interchanges were at Florence and Denver with the standard gauge outfits like the D&RG. From Florence, the rails proceeded westward through the Royal Gorge, a one thousand foot deep canyon carved out by thge Arkansas River, home to the only hanging railroad bridge in America which is still in use today.
Until I got bitten by a different bug, my plan was to model the Phantom Canyon route of the Florence and Cripple Creek RR, which would have allowed for early oil tank cars - Florence was once an oil producing center - and coal trains from the early coal mining towns south of Florence, as well as all of the other traffic. This plucky little narrow gauge line climbed five thousand feet in twenty-two miles at an average grade of 4% and a final grade of 6%, and no geared locomotives were ever used. It is still a challenging and awe inspiring drive up the old RR grade!
This area was definitely one-stop shopping for any turn-of-the-century modeler.
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I ubderstand how those bugs can bite! 
When I switched back to HO after modeling in N scale for a while, I ended up with a lot of surplus stuff in both scales...
Well, one night, I was sitting at the workbench sipping a little of KY's Finest, looking at this old HO caboose, & an N scale diesel chassis...well, by the time the sun came up, I had built the better part of a little HOn30 boxcab...I had been bitten...I spent the next couple of years building a small logging layout & a bunch of locos & cars...
Now I'm back to modeling HO standard gauge. (that is IF I ever get back around to working on my layout!)
A narrow gauge line would be an interesting element to include ine scenario we discussed...maybe a NG to & from the mine, interchanging with a standard gauge line at the junction...???
-Drew-
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This is an interesting topic. It can be approached from many different angles.
Where I live:
The rails that run close by, are now CN. I see centerbeam flats loaded with Canadian lumber products going South, empties going North. I see covered hoppers, and cylindrical hoppers loaded with grain, 50' and larger boxcars of every make and name, tank cars of every style, and size.
Just a short distance north of me is the EJ&E. There I'll see steel coil cars, and all the rest. Where the CN and EJ&E cross at Liethton, I also see a lot of UP traffic.
Where I model:
I've been HO scale from the beginning, and it was years before I got into HOn3. Interestingly, the HOn3 line, the industrial line of the Sag Harbor Shipbuilding and Drydock Company, came along late, but the shipyard it served has become the parent company for all my roads, but you don't see much of the actual shipyard ( except on my Ntrak module.)
Rolling stock, loco specific:
Probably the major percentage of rolling stock that I have is "loco specific". this is the rolling stock that makes up the train pulled by that road's loco. Forty feet of B&O hoppers, that run behind my EL3a. Another forty feet of wood reefers that run behind my Clinchfield Challengers. A generic mix of Northeastern rolling stock that runs behind my LIRR Alcos, or my "demo" Trainmaster. There's also a set of cars specifically to run behind the D&H Challenger. A long string of N&W hoppers, usually run with a 2-8-8-2 on the point, and another pushing at the rear. There's a pair of SP&S Alcos, with SP&S cars, A WP FTa+b,F7a and its string of WP rolling stock. lastly, there's all the C&O rolling stock that the H8's pull.
Being in a modular group that can set up with a straight run of up to 50', these trains became "par for the course" for the train shows we set up at.
Modeling an industry:
Thinking about this, I would have to consider modeling the complete shipyard, with all the 3' gauge, and at least two interchange points with standard gauge rail lines, one of them being the Cindys Harbor. The Shipyard would be regularly receiving steel, (wire,sheet,coils), paint by the tank car load, lumber, both construction grade, and for joiner work. There would be chain, natural and synthetic rope, coal, and on, and on. Outbound?, a variety of things from anchors, chocks, bollards, and assorted other castings, to boilers. (Schnabel loads), and small craft (depressed center flat loads), and maybe even a locomotive or two. The "Schoodic Point" needs a 30" gauge 2-6-6-2T, and the remains of the wrecked MILW SDL39 are still on the property, being rebuilt for use on the SM&CH. Moving [i]that[i] out of the shipyard, on 3' gauge track to the closest standard gauge interchange point, will "be an industry unto itself!"
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Great discussion we have going with very interesting points of view.. 
Larry
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Yes, it was a great discussion...what happened to it? :?
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MountainMan Wrote:Yes, it was a great discussion...what happened to it? :?
Well, hopefully we can take it up again. Here's an official necro-post from yours truly. I've always enjoyed Larry's operations discussions, so I can't help but get in on this one. Especially since we were talking about something similar in chat the other night.
There are pros and cons of both methods of freight distribution, but can we have both loads in/empties out AND inbound/outbound exist on the same layout?
I'm very aware of how loads in/empties out works, but how would you operate with the inbound/outbound method? To me, it sounds like you're talking about just rotating the roster to have fresh cars on the layout, then not really giving them anywhere to go.
Tony
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Drew Wrote:I ubderstand how those bugs can bite!
When I switched back to HO after modeling in N scale for a while, I ended up with a lot of surplus stuff in both scales...
Well, one night, I was sitting at the workbench sipping a little of KY's Finest, looking at this old HO caboose, & an N scale diesel chassis...well, by the time the sun came up, I had built the better part of a little HOn30 boxcab...I had been bitten...I spent the next couple of years building a small logging layout & a bunch of locos & cars...
Now I'm back to modeling HO standard gauge. (that is IF I ever get back around to working on my layout!)
A narrow gauge line would be an interesting element to include ine scenario we discussed...maybe a NG to & from the mine, interchanging with a standard gauge line at the junction...???
The NG Florence and Cripple Creek did indeed interchange with standard gauge in Florence, CO. At one time Florence offered mining railroading, oil and coal mining, not to mention farm produce, livestock and passenger service as well, plus shipping in all of the timber required to build the railroads, mines and structures of the surrounding communities.
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