Car advice re 2003 Subaru?

[RobertInOntario]

OK, I know this is a train forum, but a lot of rail fans are also car enthusiasts and, I also received some great advice in the past here re my Honda Civic.

To make a long story short, my wife and I have a 2003 Subaru Legacy which we bought new in the fall of 2002. The car has been great until late 2010, when it passed the 155,000-km mark (close to 100,000 miles). In Nov. of 2010, it required its third clutch (the first clutch replacement was in 2008 at approx. 110,000 km!). Then, in Dec., its transmission died. The new clutch cost around $800 and the new tranny was about $2,500. I think both of these problems should not have happened, especially the third clutch. My wife & I have been the only drivers of this car since we bought it and we are very calm, "non-aggressive" drivers.

And now, another problem is occurring -- a problem with the rack & pinion (R&P) steering. Recently, it has become VERY hard to steer. My local garage (whom I trust), says that there is a joint in the R&P steering that will need replacing. There is also a power steering fluid leak occurring around a seal. Bottom line: the R&P steering and joint will have to be replaced for a cost ball-parked at $1,000, or higher. This garage has advised me that the car IS safe to drive as it is -- there is no safety risk (at least not yet). The mechanics simply lubricated the joint and topped up the power steering fluid. This has improved the problem substantially but is only a temporary fix.

I'm also planning to go to our Subaru dealer to get their advice/second opinion.

Also, in Oct. 2010, we bought 4 new all-season radial tires, which is a further investment into this car, although that is normal wear & tear. The other jobs, IMO, should not have been required, especially the new clutch within 2 years or 40,000 km. I also think the muffler is dying as well!

So, we're trying to decide at what point do we trade in this car (we might get $3,000 to $4,000 for it) after already having spent close to $4,000 on it, with another $1,000—$1,500 to come? My latest half-baked idea is to keep it running until the late fall and then trade it in. That way, we should get at least some of our money's worth from it. I"m also thinking of NOT having the steering problem fixed -- just simply leave it as it is. In order words, drive the car into the ground, and don't have any major repairs done to it, unless I learn that there is a safety issue.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

Rob

[Fluesheet]

Hey Rob,

Subaru manual transmissions are typically very strong, so I am surprised that it failed on you.

More to your point the third clutch sounds suspicious. Assuming the second clutch was installed in a workmanlike manner, there is nothing about an aging car that would otherwise cause it to fail faster than your first clutch.

As far as investment into the car, if you otherwise like the car, and your mechanic doesn't find any faults that would tear up a new seal on the steering shaft, I think it would be worth the repair. The context I always use is the relative cost (especially over time) of repairs vs. costs associated with a new car.

Matt

[RobertInOntario]

Thanks for your feedback, Matt! Yes, the 3rd clutch sounds suspicious -- I'm wondering if they're using cheaper after-market parts? The transmission was also a surprise.

I'll also still think about the repair. My concern is that some other costly item might be about to "go" on it, such as the shocks or suspension, or the fuel injection system?

I'll carefully think about this -- I'm at the point of feeling overwhelmed with too much info!

Cheers,
Rob

[rrinker]

DO you know what exactly failed with the transmission? It's possible that an incorrectly installed clutch contributed to the failure, and also the abnormally short life of the second clutch. Good luck with getting any recompense after that much time though.
Now, being a car guy and liking the idea of racing for cheap, I'd drive it into the ground, until it was worth less than $500, and then make it into a Lemons car. Yes, Lemons, not LeMons. Google 24 hours of Lemons and find the one that doesn't look like a professional auto race. I don't know if they've made any forays into Canada yet though.

--Randy

[RobertInOntario]

DO you know what exactly failed with the transmission? It's possible that an incorrectly installed clutch contributed to the failure, and also the abnormally short life of the second clutch. Good luck with getting any recompense after that much time though.
Now, being a car guy and liking the idea of racing for cheap, I'd drive it into the ground, until it was worth less than $500, and then make it into a Lemons car. Yes, Lemons, not LeMons. Google 24 hours of Lemons and find the one that doesn't look like a professional auto race. I don't know if they've made any forays into Canada yet though.

--Randy

Thanks, Randy. It seems that various bearings went with the transmission. It was making a terrible loud whirring noise and driving roughly.

I also wonder about the clutch causing problems. My other theory is that All-Wheel Drive is over-rated and puts extra wear & tear on the clutch & transmission.

I'm not mechanically-minded, but -- when I can -- I try to double-check any info I receive from mechanics by taking the car to more than one garage. When I go to various garages, I don't say too much (or let on what I've learned) to avoid causing any bias & to be objective. If the findings (diagnoses) are consistent, then you know for sure what the problem is. However, if they're radically different, then you know that at least one garage isn't being straight with you.

Hopefully, if I can keep it running into November (without making any major repairs), it will still be worth $3,000.

[P5se Camelback]

I, too, am surprised, puzzled and somewhat suspicious by the seemingly abnormal clutch wear and the failed tranny!

Besides you and your wife, who I must assume are familiar with use of a clutch and manual transmission (and don't rest your foot on the clutch pedal while driving,) who else is driving this vehicle. My little '94 Festiva has 221,000+ miles on it and is on its second clutch. The original one had to be replaced not long after I got it in '97 with 46,000 on the clock. I assumed that the original owners should have been driving a car with an automatic transmission.

Now, I don't abuse a clutch, but I do use it, going up and down through the gearbox as needed ... I "drive the doors off" that little hopped-up box, auto-crossing it several times a year, with a couple trophies for my efforts. I don’t “slip” a clutch – it’s either in or out! On shifting down a gear, I (very quickly) “double-clutch,” and “blip” the throttle, matching the engine rpm’s for the lower gear … no clutch slippage. The clutch is still strong! (That would be 175,000 miles on this clutch. But it was an almost "sterile" installation, being handled only by nitrile gloves from its box to the engine's output shaft during this install.)

A glimpse of the "Festiva House." The one under the cover is the "Hot Rod" with all the imported European Mazda 121 body panels and the pumped-up 1.6 liter Mazda 323 engine (now producing 138 hp - the stock 1.3 liter had 64 hp) and full competition suspension ... should be a real runner when completed ... I'm working on making the body pristine and flawless now.)


I can't imaging why a manual gearbox would fail unless fluid levels were not maintained (normally a problem only when there's a leaky gasket or seal) or the gearbox was "abused" (missed high rpm shifts, failure to depress the clutch fully causing the "Hey, Buddy …grind me a pound" comment by someone close by. Is there a young son who is possibly drag racing or a young daughter prone to slip the clutch a lot ... I don't know why many girls do that, but they do! And slamming drag racing shifts (and missing one on occasion) will do a number on the old gearbox!

But I’d say if the car’s body does not show salt damage from winter driving and all else mechanical is in decent shape and the outlook, based on vehicle history, is one of reliable performance, and you like the car, I'd say fix it and drive it a few more years, but check ALL fluids weekly as well as park over a sheet of corrugated cardboard at least once a month after a lengthy drive (when everything is good and warm) to observe any leaks, which should be addressed immediately!

That’s my opinion, for what it’s worth. :mrgreen:

[RobertInOntario]

I, too, am surprised, puzzled and somewhat suspicious by the seemingly abnormal clutch wear and the failed tranny!
Besides you and your wife, who I must assume are familiar with use of a clutch and manual transmission (and don't rest your foot on the clutch pedal while driving,) who else is driving this vehicle. My little '94 Festiva has 221,000+ miles on it and is on its second clutch. The original one had to be replaced not long after I got it in '97 with 46,000 on the clock. I assumed that the original owners should have been driving a car with an automatic transmission.
Now, I don't abuse a clutch, but I do use it, going up and down through the gearbox as needed ... I "drive the doors off" that little hopped-up box, auto-crossing it several times a year, with a couple trophies for my efforts. I don’t “slip” a clutch – it’s either in or out! On shifting down a gear, I (very quickly) “double-clutch,” and “blip” the throttle, matching the engine rpm’s for the lower gear … no clutch slippage. The clutch is still strong! (That would be 175,000 miles on this clutch. But it was an almost "sterile" installation, being handled only by nitrile gloves from its box to the engine's output shaft during this install.)
A glimpse of the "Festiva House." The one under the cover is the "Hot Rod" with all the imported European Mazda 121 body panels and the pumped-up 1.6 liter Mazda 323 engine (now producing 138 hp - the stock 1.3 liter had 64 hp) and full competition suspension ... should be a real runner when completed ... I'm working on making the body pristine and flawless now.)

I can't imaging why a manual gearbox would fail unless fluid levels were not maintained (normally a problem only when there's a leaky gasket or seal) or the gearbox was "abused" (missed high rpm shifts, failure to depress the clutch fully causing the "Hey, Buddy …grind me a pound" comment by someone close by. Is there a young son who is possibly drag racing or a young daughter prone to slip the clutch a lot ... I don't know why many girls do that, but they do! And slamming drag racing shifts (and missing one on occasion) will do a number on the old gearbox!
But I’d say if the car’s body does not show salt damage from winter driving and all else mechanical is in decent shape and the outlook, based on vehicle history, is one of reliable performance, and you like the car, I'd say fix it and drive it a few more years, but check ALL fluids weekly as well as park over a sheet of corrugated cardboard at least once a month after a lengthy drive (when everything is good and warm) to observe any leaks, which should be addressed immediately!
That’s my opinion, for what it’s worth. :mrgreen:

Thanks -- appreciate your feedback!

Yes, that is the bizarre thing about the 3rd clutch. My wife and I have been the only drivers on this car and we have driven standard / manual shift cars since the 1980s (or earlier in my case! ) I have a theory that they're using second-rate parts, especially with the clutches. Our local garage quote $2,000 to fix the clutch while the dealer quoted $800-900, so I naturally went to the dealer -- now I think I know why the dealer was so much cheaper.

It probably makes sense to keep it going but I"m worried about paying another (say) $1,000+ on it with possibly more problems to come. I'll try to stay on top of the gearbox fluids as well -- it's possible that they weren't maintained as well as they should have.

Rob

[P5se Camelback]

Robert,

These days the only vehicle I work on is my final automotive design project.

With my COPD, I don't do any real heavy lifting any more and no work at all on my daily driver, "Horace," * a '95 Dodge Dakota that just turned 203,000 on the clock. When I need things done on it (oil change, new brake cylinders in the rear) I buy quality parts at the NAPA store and pay my "similarly misplaced Philadelphian" buddy to have someone in his shop do the work and I only pay for labor. That way, I'm certain I'm getting good parts and I trust him and his guys to do a righteous job on the install.

* There were two Dodge brothers, John and Horace.
The name John was just too common a name!

[rrinker]

For 2 grand I hope they were going to do a LOT more than just replace the clutch - that's WAY too high. If you got to it before it became so worn that the rivets started gouging the flywheel, the dealer price was more like it - maybe even a little high since dealers rip you off for the labor. (sorry if anyone here is a car dealer, but the only way any of my cars will EVER see a dealership garage is for warranty work - I have PLENTY of horror stories about the incompetent boobs who don't knwo anythign about the specific brand of car they sell). They probably didn't have things aligned correctly, putting abnormal forces on the bearings and allowing the clutch to not seat squarely agaisnt the pressure plate.

AWD does put more stress on the transmisison and clutch, but look how long the firs tone lasted. The second should have lasted wqually as long, assuming your driving habits remained the same. One thing a lot of newer cars have (mine included, soon as I get around to it, it's coming off) is a clutch delay valve, which keeps you from just sidestepping the clutch pedal and dumping it - makes for nice smokey burnouts, and , particularly in the case of AWD, makes for broken axles. But it ALSO makes it nearly imposisble to get a totally smooth shift, especially from 1-2, no matter how good you are - as the actual motion of the clutch lags you foot movement. It works by slowing down how fast the clutch disk comes into contact with the pressure plate - and like most things, goign too fast is bad, but so is goign too slow. Droppign the clutch puts too much strain ont he drive train, engaging too slowly causes the clutch to slip and wear faster. I'm still on the original clutch at 108k miles, as the second owner. There are a variety of things I need ot get checked out, one of those being the condition of the clutch. If it's almsot done for, I'm going to replace it and remove the delay valve, if it's still got plenty of meat left, I'm just going to remove the delay valve.

--Randy

[Squidbait]

It may be that the higher price for the first clutch job included facing the flywheel. If the flywheel was scored or damaged, just putting a new clutch in is a recipe for a short-lived clutch.

As for keeping/swapping... you've had the car since new? So 8 years... do you still enjoy driving it?

Figure on $400/month for a new replacement (even with 0% financing over a long term), and work out what your repair costs are going to be amortized over the next 5 years. Add whatever the potential frustrations of having to repair an aging car will cost you in stress, and go with what makes you more comfortable.

In an older car, things like exhaust, brakes and tires are just normal wear items. The clutch is a normal wear item, but it sounds like you've got abnormally high wear.

If you're fed up with repairs, then move the car, and get something new. The question is can you replace it with new (and 3-5 years of warranty coverage), or are you going to have to buy used? Sometimes its better to eat the repair costs and stick with the devil you know.

[RobertInOntario]

It may be that the higher price for the first clutch job included facing the flywheel. If the flywheel was scored or damaged, just putting a new clutch in is a recipe for a short-lived clutch.

As for keeping/swapping... you've had the car since new? So 8 years... do you still enjoy driving it?

Figure on $400/month for a new replacement (even with 0% financing over a long term), and work out what your repair costs are going to be amortized over the next 5 years. Add whatever the potential frustrations of having to repair an aging car will cost you in stress, and go with what makes you more comfortable.

In an older car, things like exhaust, brakes and tires are just normal wear items. The clutch is a normal wear item, but it sounds like you've got abnormally high wear.

If you're fed up with repairs, then move the car, and get something new. The question is can you replace it with new (and 3-5 years of warranty coverage), or are you going to have to buy used? Sometimes its better to eat the repair costs and stick with the devil you know.

Thanks! One option we're seriously considering is buying a slightly used car -- one that is only 2-3 years old with less than 50,000km on it. That could be the best compromise. With our current Subaru, there is not only this steering problem but I also suspect the muffler is going (even though that's normal wear & tear, it's still another expense). When you buy a slightly used car, someone else has already taken the hit of devaluation! Cheers, Rob

[Squidbait]

Thanks! One option we're seriously considering is buying a slightly used car -- one that is only 2-3 years old with less than 50,000km on it. That could be the best compromise. With our current Subaru, there is not only this steering problem but I also suspect the muffler is going (even though that's normal wear & tear, it's still another expense). When you buy a slightly used car, someone else has already taken the hit of devaluation! Cheers, Rob

Well, if you're thinking 3-years old, unless you're paying cash, you may as well look at new with 0 or low % financing. The financing rates available for used cars are much higher than new, and raise your monthly cost to the same as financing a new car.

You'll need to do some homework

[RobertInOntario]

Thanks! One option we're seriously considering is buying a slightly used car -- one that is only 2-3 years old with less than 50,000km on it. That could be the best compromise. With our current Subaru, there is not only this steering problem but I also suspect the muffler is going (even though that's normal wear & tear, it's still another expense). When you buy a slightly used car, someone else has already taken the hit of devaluation! Cheers, Rob

Well, if you're thinking 3-years old, unless you're paying cash, you may as well look at new with 0 or low % financing. The financing rates available for used cars are much higher than new, and raise your monthly cost to the same as financing a new car.

You'll need to do some homework

Thanks -- that's exactly what a friend of mine is planning to do! It looks like it's worth considering then. If we do this, we'll do the same thing -- buy new and then drive it into the ground. Cheers, Rob

[Squidbait]

Rob,

That's what my landlords did last summer. They were looking to replace their 6-year-old Camry, and when they crunched the numbers, the new one wound up costing $3 more per month than a 2-year old used one.

Are you going to be looking for a mid-sized sedan?

[RobertInOntario]

Rob,

That's what my landlords did last summer. They were looking to replace their 6-year-old Camry, and when they crunched the numbers, the new one wound up costing $3 more per month than a 2-year old used one.

Are you going to be looking for a mid-sized sedan?

I keep going back and forth on this -- one day I'm ready to trade the Subaru in, the next I'm ready to keep it! If we do trade it in, a mid-sized sedan would make the most sense. I'm looking at Mazda 6's (especially the wagon version), possibly Honda Accords or even a Ford Fusion. Something in that range.

Every now and then, the idea of a van comes up. As practical as they are, they're the most un-cool (and, IMHO, hard to drive because they're so large) vehicles you can get ! But I could easily transport my small layouts around in a van, so that gets me thinking again!

Cheers,