SSWUP ISL - Your comments

[dave1905]

I would lose the crossing of industrial spurs and go with the first version, waaaaaaaaaaay more typical. I would also put in a runaround.

In the yard I would make it a parallelogram so al the tracks are the same length. Takes up no more space and gets another couple of cars of room.

[SSWUPinSA]

Here is a nice Industry in AZ, WR Grace, looks like tank cars and Hoppers: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qhwgcc7yrd1p&lvl=17&dir=0&sty=o&FORM=LMLTCC#JnE9LjQyMjArV2VzdCtHbGVucm9zYStBdmVudWUrUGhvZW5peCUyYytBWis4NTAxOS0zMzA5JTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTI5LjQ0MjMwNTIxODY4ODYlN2UtOTguNDEzNzcyMTI2NzIxOCU3ZTI5LjQzODE5OTEwMjQ0MDMlN2UtOTguNDE5NjE5MzQyMzc0Mg==">http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qhwgcc ... QyMzc0Mg==</a><!-- m -->

This is the Spur that I originally got the cross-over from, looked good here and there are a few industries around this circular Industrial Spur that may be nice to model: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qhwgcc7yrd1p&lvl=17&dir=0&sty=o&FORM=LMLTCC#JnE9LjQ0NTUrRWFzdCs0NnRoK0F2ZW51ZStEZW52ZXIlMmMrQ08rODAyMTYtMzIzMSU3ZXNzdC4wJTdlcGcuMSZiYj0zOS45MDI5NjgwMzYyNjgzJTdlLTEwNC42MTgwMzc3OTAwNiU3ZTM5LjU3NjY2NTE5ODcxNzQlN2UtMTA1LjM2NjQ4MTM5MzU3Ng==">http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qhwgcc ... M5MzU3Ng==</a><!-- m -->

[FCIN]

That's an interesting industrial spur in Phoenix. Good example of a "typical" industrial spur. Hope you found the links useful, just some examples of industries that were proposed. And yes, I too prefer the more open industrial spurs as opposed to the dense urban areas. More of what I'm used to seeing as much as anything.

Right off hand, I don't have any specific references to models of such facilities, but take a look at what some of the folks on here have done on their layouts. There is some really neat stuff on some of these layouts!

I tend to go with the first version of your track plan rather than the second with the crossing (not cross over) used to access the industry in upper left corner. I've seen that arrangement used in a few locations over the years, but they are rare on the more open type industrial spurs. Of course if space is tight, then it would be the way to go. Ultimately, it's up to you which version you want to go with.

I'm not sure what sort of operating scheme you have in mind for this plan. Will everything originate/terminate in the staging area? A plan like you have could easily be treated as though the industrial area was a separate short line or switching company, with the staging area representing interchange with the connecting road. In either case, then you'll need to have a track where you can block out the train with anything destined to the odd facing industry on opposite end of the engine.

In that regard, I still wonder about the short siding on the staging area. Might be better if you changed it into a single ended storage or interchange track type arrangement that would parallel the runaround and swing back next to the "main" track. I sure don't see any place where you could include a runaround on the main part of the layout, without making it look much too crowded.

[steinjr]

Hi Justin, yes :oops: it will look farmilliar...lol Did a change below to make it more mine...ha ha



Thanks for all those industries guys... I like the candy factory idea...that is great!!!!!

I think that so far, the plan below (version 37) is my favorite:



I like the single ended staging yard better than the double ended staging yard, and I like the runaround inside the industry area.

But it is your layout, and the important thing is that you like it.

Smile,
Stein

[FCIN]

Was doing some looking at PCA plant locations around the country and found a crossing arrangement similar to what you have in your plan in Pearl, MS. Thought you might want to take a look at it:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...4&t=k&z=19

Talk about a rural industrial area!

[SSWUPinSA]

I like that runaround design as well...all look good to me. My main concern is which will be the best to opperate... I still have no idea of what a simple opperations evening would consist of... Where do you pull the old cars to while placeing new one etc??? My main concern for the design is how they will opperate down the line when I know whats going on...

[SSWUPinSA]

Like this Ed?

[Brakie]

I like that runaround design as well...all look good to me. My main concern is which will be the best to opperate... I still have no idea of what a simple opperations evening would consist of... Where do you pull the old cars to while placeing new one etc??? My main concern for the design is how they will opperate down the line when I know whats going on...

Looking over your plan I see several ways I would switch the industries based on observation and first hand experienced as a brakeman.

Stay tune for part 2..

I have a doctor's appointment in Mansfield(26 miles away) at 8 Am and time is passing by to quickly for involved reply.

[SSWUPinSA]

A few ideas for an operation session would be great... Lets say some cars coming inbound and a few needing to be respotted... Maybe just and example of one industry, say the top right....and/or top left.... Waiting with bated breath Brakie... Wish I knew more about these kinds of ops, have read a lot but it gets rather confusing.... like what goes where etc... obviously on this layout the Geeps will push the cars that are inbound... would they be dropped in the interchange and the other pulled all the way back to the small yard of the left or just wait to be pushed back??

[FCIN]

A few ideas for an operation session would be great... Lets say some cars coming inbound and a few needing to be respotted... Maybe just and example of one industry, say the top right....and/or top left.... Waiting with bated breath Brakie... Wish I knew more about these kinds of ops, have read a lot but it gets rather confusing.... like what goes where etc... obviously on this layout the Geeps will push the cars that are inbound... would they be dropped in the interchange and the other pulled all the way back to the small yard of the left or just wait to be pushed back??

    Made a couple of notes on your plan, but otherwise it's the same. Not sure I see any need for that turnout at the lower left that only gives you two short tracks.

As a former railroader, I see at least two potential methods of operating this plan. First, would be to operate it strictly as an industrial spur and the second would be to treat it as an industrial park operated by a separate switching company that connects with another road (notation on plan about where loco could be stored). In fact, you could alternately operate your layout using either of these themes, just for variety.

Not sure what industries you've selected, but let's say that the large industry in the center of the plan (where I show car Spot numbers) is a food processing facility (good car variety). Say that the industry can spot 4 cars at one time and from end of track they spot like this: Spot 1 - Vegetable Oil tank car, Spot 2 - Reefer, Spot 3 - Box car, Spot 4 - Box car.

As a simple example of how just this one industry would be worked, let's say that the tank car on Spot 1 is empty and the box car at Spot 3 is empty. You'll be bringing in a loaded tank car for Spot 1 and a box car for Spot 3 to be placed.

Leaving your staging or interchange area, you'd have your train blocked: tank car, box car, engine pushing. On arrival at the industry, you shove the tank car past the switch and cut it off. Holding on to the box car, you would then go on to the industry spur, couple all the cars and pull the whole track.

Couple to the tank car on the main and set it over on the spur. Next set your empty tank car over on the main and cut it off.

Set the still loaded reefer over on the tank on the spur and come back to the main. Set the empty box car from Spot 3 and the still loaded box car from Spot 4 on your tank car and cut them off.

Now set your inbound loaded car for Spot 3 on the reefer and tank car on the spur then come back to the main and get your car for Spot 4 and couple to your cars on the spur.

Now you're ready to spot your cars. Shove to end of the spur, spot your tank car at Spot 1, then move back and spot your reefer at Spot 2, and the box cars at Spots 3 and 4 and then you're ready to pick up your two outbound empties and head back to the staging/interchange track.

Just working this one industry as I describe would take at least 15 minutes and that's without adding any sort of "time killing" other than switching at prototypical speed (no more than 4/5 mph) and the time required to couple/uncouple the cars and throw the switch. With several industries on your plan that would be switched in a similar fashion, you can see that your typical operating session would probably take close to two hours to work, even if you just placed/pulled one car from each industry.

Of course, to be prototypical, every industry would not be switched every session (depending of course on what the industries are) and you can tailor the sessions to suit the time you want to operate it.

If you operate the plan as though it were a separate switching company, then you'd fire up your engine and go to the interchange, block out your inbound cars and then shove them back to work the industries. Once all your industries have been worked, you'd take your outbound cars back to the interchange and then return and tie up for the day. I would always block the cars so that you work from the end of the spur back toward the interchange/staging area.

Hope this is clear. Feel free to contact me off list any time and we can go into more detail if you like.

[Brakie]

A few ideas for an operation session would be great... Lets say some cars coming inbound and a few needing to be respotted... Maybe just and example of one industry, say the top right....and/or top left.... Waiting with bated breath Brakie... Wish I knew more about these kinds of ops, have read a lot but it gets rather confusing.... like what goes where etc... obviously on this layout the Geeps will push the cars that are inbound... would they be dropped in the interchange and the other pulled all the way back to the small yard of the left or just wait to be pushed back??

First I would separate operation into week days(Monday-Friday) and then figure out a industry rotation plan this way each industry doesn't get switch every operation period.

Let's Switch the team track and one of the industries today..We'll call this operation Monday.

For the team tack inbound we have 2 gons of steel tubes and outbound is a empty boxcar.

We have 2 loaded boxcars for warehouse #2 and one pick up.
----------------------------------
Tuesday..

We have 3 cars for the food processor and no pick ups.

2 cars for warehouse #4 and 3 pick ups.

Wednesday
Arrive light(engine only) with pick up from the team track and 1 car from #2 warehouse.

Thursday

We have setouts for the team track,food processor and warehouse #2.

Pick up includes warehouse #4 and team track.

Friday

Set outs for warehouse #4.

Pickups food processor-Tuesday cars-Warehouse #4 Wednesday's setouts.
-----------------------
This is the way I operate my ISLs so I won't jam up my ISLs with lots of setouts where it would become unworkable or to much like a switching puzzle plus it gives the industries time to unload the cars..

[SSWUPinSA]

Thanks Ed and Larry.... Making more sense now.... Maybe stretch it to 2 industries some days and they would be switched last to first I take it... Please keep some examples comming!!! Awesome help!!!

[FCIN]

You're welcome!

Larry has given you a really good operating scenario for your layout. Excellent example of what might take place on any real industrial spur on any given day of the week. Just because you have 8 industries, doesn't mean that every one of them is switched daily. Some might ship or receive only a car once a week or month; others might require a switch every day. Just depends on the industry.

Also, just because a certain industry has spots/doors for say 4 cars, doesn't mean you'd see cars placed at all the spots, all the time (there would of course be exceptions). On my current layout plan, the food processing facility has 4 spots, but usually there are only a couple of cars spotted at any one time. Another industry has 5 car spots and rarely are there more than 3 cars on spot.

You could of course have the industrial spur switched more than once a day too. First shift crew might work just one or two industries during their shift and then later, the third shift crew might work some of the other industries. Just another idea if you wanted longer operating sessions.

I just finished switching the food processing plant on my layout, exactly as I described for you in my previous post and it took 30 minutes for the crew to come from the staging track - switch the cars as described and return to staging. If I'd staged the train with cars to switch for 1 or 2 more industries, I'd still be at it! That should give you a good idea of how long it would take you to operate a "typical" session on your layout.

[Russ Bellinis]

I was just checking on Bing Maps for an oil dealer that used to be located across the street from Overseas Shipping Terminal where I used to work before the owners sold out and the Evergreen terminal took over the property. It looks like the oil dealer has moved the storage facility and unloading depot, and all that is left are the large storage tanks that are filled by tankers at the dock. I presume that they are for crude oil and have underground piping to take the crude to the refineries in Wilmington. They had an unloading terminal across the street from Overseas Shipping where they unloaded tank cars at a system of pipes similar to the Walthers oil dock kit. There were two spur tracks that could receive probably a maximum of 8 tank cars. There was also a sheet metal building across the street and next door to Overseas Terminal where they stored cases and 55 gallon drums of Quaker State oil. They would sometimes receive tankers to be unloaded into the storage tanks that are still there. Other times they would receive box cars loaded with either case lots of oil on pallets or 55 gallon drums that would be unloaded by fork lift and taken across the street to the metal building. In the ten year that I worked at Overseas Shipping Terminal, I never ever saw the railroad pull car out and spot fresh ones at the same time. I think most of the unloading was done in the evening. The railroad would send a crew over to pick up cars (I think empty) between 9:00am to 11:00 am. Then if the railroad had more cars to spot, they would show up @ 3:00pm to 4:30pm. I think they typically worked that industry about 3 times per week. I think the reason that they didn't remove cars and spot new ones at the same time is that they would have tied up Earl Street at a time when the container terminals were moving a lot of truck traffic in and out. Since the company has since moved out of that area, the spurs have been removed and Evergreen Terminal is using the space where the oil terminal used to be to store containers and chassis, so it is difficult for me to remember whether the tracks crossed Earl St. 20 years ago or not.

[Brakie]

Thanks Ed and Larry.... Making more sense now.... Maybe stretch it to 2 industries some days and they would be switched last to first I take it... Please keep some examples comming!!! Awesome help!!!

Ed suggested a separate switching company..This is a excellent idea that makes you feel like your working for this switching company..

A scenario.

Let's call this switching railroad Columbus Terminal Ry.We will use a GE 70tonner #5.

We report to work and look over the inbound list and today's switch list as Tom our engine man fires up #5.

After coffee we toddle over to the interchange and pickup 7 inbound cars and head back to do the work as per the switch list.

After the switching is completed we take the outbound cars to the interchange and return to the office and park the engine.We then take a lunch break before heading over to make some respotting for one of the larger industries and when finish we return the engine to its spot and Tom shuts it down for the day.

At this point we replace the outbound cars with new cars on the inbound track for the next operation session.

The main element is slow switching speeds.