RobL's "Yet Another Redesign"

[RobL]

I feel like I need an NFL referee in my basement to call my false start penalties in regards to my start and restarts in my modeling space...

Trying to make the best use of my space has been a lesson in trial and (mostly) error as I've gone along, but last week I tore it all down, emptied the room and got the measuring tape out and really thought things through as far as maximizing space utilization.

For my first step I make a rough sketch of a track plan with no sidings, no switches, no nothing, just a loop around the room at the minimum radius I wanted (24"). I knew I'd want some double track at some points of the layout, so for those, I'd accept a 22" radius, but that was for later...

With the rough sketch in place, I reconstructed my benchwork and then got to REAL planning this time... my last two attempts were "plan as you go", and well, that has not served me well at all... funny thing is I write software for a living and I am always in a design / build / redesign mode based on user feedback, so I *thought* I could apply that method to building a model railroad, but there just some hard limitations, such as the size of the room vs. track radius that simply can't be changed, so my "aha" moment was, "hey, I need a REAL track plan this time around!".

So here is my first stab at it... at this point I am hoping some of you guys could provide some feedback, regardless of it being positive or negative... I really want to nail this plan down before I trace lines and cut a single sheet of plywood...

Thanks,
--Rob.

   

[steinjr]

What are we seeing?

What scale are you modeling in?

How big is the room? Is the layout up against the walls along most of the perimeter of the room, except for a door opening at lower right?

What do you want to run?

Smile,
Stein

[RobL]

Ooops... forgot those details!

HO scale, running GP-38/40 / U23B type diesels, 50ft. boxcars and the like.
The room is 117" deep by 226" wide (9.75 ft deep x 18.83 ft wide).
The benchwork wraps around the perimeter of the room except for the doorway as you noted, Stein.
The areas where the trains "turn around" are designed for accessibility for all sides (for the most part!... I am short so my arms only stretch so far )
Want the train to run continuously while providing some switching capabilities.

--Rob.

[RobL]

... one other note, along the bottom of the plan, there is actually a 30" aisle that is not on the plan... there is a sump pump closet in the lower left hand corner that comes out about 30" from the wall, so it makes for a perfect aisle to access both sides of the layout at that point... I maintained the 30" aisle along the entire 226" run (again, to allow access to the turnarounds as "easily" as possible from both sides.

--Rob.

[steinjr]

Some minor suggestions/questions:

1) What is the track at far left, along the wall - open staging? Industry? Part of the yard?

2) Would it be possible to have the yard come off this track instead of off the main, and have the yard ladder slant towards the aisle instead of away from the aisle? Would give you a bigger yard, and would prevent that cars on the tracks closest to the aisle obscure the view of the clearance points on the yard track behind it.

3) Siding along aisle upper part of layout - might be an idea to swap the position of the LH and RH turnout, so that the lowermost track becomes the main and the uppermost the siding - will eliminate an S curve on the left side of the siding, and allow you to take the right side of the siding further towards the right, creating a longer siding.

But the bigger question is what you want to model. What look and feel you are looking for.

I notice that you have several spurs labeled "industry" - like you just have decided "I want something here, but don't know what yet".

You have two seemingly rather long passing sidings (one of which is hidden for part of it's length - possibly indicating mountain territory). And two shorter sidings (say about 1/3 the length of the room - about 6 feet ?) at the top of the layout.

You mentioned freight engines and 50-foot boxcars - what era are we talking about - 1970s/80s or so? Later? Earlier?

What type of place is this - agricultural town in Iowa? Baltimore harbor? Steel making in Pennsylvania? Small Appalachian coal mining town? Lumber processing town in Washington State? Light manufacturing in Southern California?

Is this a place which sees one or two trains a day, or a steady stream of trains throughout the day?

What kind of stuff does your railroad carry? Where does inbound stuff come from? Where does outbound stuff go to? Will things be coming from several directions and head out in several directions (i.e. needing cars to be routed in different directions), or will things pretty much arrive in your area from one place - maybe a bigger railroad or yard "down that way" ?

Smile,
Stein

[RobL]

Thanks for the comments, Stein. I gave your ideas some thought as well as my own continuing ideas some thought and reworked some of the track. Basically the inspiration for the scenery is based on my trips to Vermont and New England in the Autumn... lots of color and that look that while it is 2011, it could still be 1896... With that in mind, the industry on the layout will be timber, syrup, paper, and granite and marble. The time period could be the 80's - today... I am not so much worried about replicating a time period per se, but more of a broad brushed "modern" era... in other words, freedom to mix things from the early 80's right through today with complete artistic license and no regard for realism as far as period goes. I thought about what industry might go where so I picked some town/village names in Vermont and gave some names and faces to the industry.

After thinking and moving tracks around, I still don't have the urge to build a layout based on operational perfection / prototype... I want to run a train continuous (and I am not afraid to admit that ... but I want some industry / sidings for the purpose of "setting up" scenes that can be photographed in small chunks to give the impression of realism... I have no intention of having an "operating session", so I am not overly concerned about track configuration that paints me in a bad corner operationally... in short, I am more excited to work on scenery rather than "run trains" in a prototypical fashion.

I realize that at the end of the day, this is my layout and ultimately all of the details are up to me, but I certainly do appreciate any and all feedback from the forum!

--Rob.

   

[steinjr]

Okay - so you basically want some vignettes as photo locations, plus a single track main for continuous display running.

Wouldn't it be easier to set up sincere looking scenes for photo shoots with a once-around design (possibly with a lift-out across the door for continuous running), or with a dumbbell type of track plan (turnaround loops, but single track main connecting the two turnaround loops) instead of a dog bone with a considerable height difference between the inner/lower track and the rear/upper track?

Is the area you want to model characterized by having some tracks running right along the base of cliff faces and other tracks running on ledges next to sudden drops?

Smile,
Stein

[RobL]

Stein:

I hadn't given much thought to a total around the room layout... one of the things I did not want no matter what was a duck-under... I have a semi-wonky back which I am sure will not magically get better with age! I didn't think about a latched panel or anything like that though which is certainly interesting. I fired up the track planning software and played with that concept for awhile and no matter what I did, I couldn't fall in love with it...

I am "more or less" in love with my "rev 2" idea, but I am concerned about the height differences between the levels and what that means for "look and feel" of the layout.... I think the bigger concern is the fact that my estimates put it at above a 3% grade which might not look that good, nor run that well, and not to mention 40 foot cliffs at 1:1 scale...

I am pretty much sold on the concept, but I need to rethink and rework the "levels"... maybe move the tunnels to the upper level, get away from the "over / under" trackage and maybe have a nice long 2% run up from the lowest to highest point?!?

The benchwork is already built, so it is more or less trying to get a workable plan that I am not going to hate 3 months from now... good luck with that, right?!? the around the room concept would have worked with the benchwork with some small (1 evening) modifications, I was willing to take that on, but just couldn't find the right mojo with a track plan...

What I *really* need is about another 3 feet of depth... and I would have had that if it wasn't for the damn inground pool! I would have had the addition built on the house so the room had at least 13 feet of depth in that room versus the 10 it has now (plus I didn't anticipate losing 2 1/2 feet to a sump hole!)... oh well, you can only work with the space you have, which is why I built the benchwork the way I did, basically optimize the floor plan expecting a dogbone style plan...

Thanks again for your thoughts... if not for anything they have got me thinking point/counterpoint on this design... I *know* I will *never* find perfect, but it nice to have another set of eyes asking the "what if's" and pointing out the potential pitfalls...

...back to AnyRail...

--Rob.

[Squidbait]

OK, just a few quick comments before I go off to work, I'll come back later tonight and be a bit less brief:

1: you have too many industrial spurs off the main line nowhere near a passing siding. You'll find it very frustrating to work these without a runaround nearby.

2: if you're thinking Vermont, you've got too much railroad for the space you've got available. You're pushing into the realm of the Spaghetti Western.

3: If you've already built your benchwork without a track plan in mind, you've put the cart before the horse. You've assumed that what you have is the only, optimal arrangement for your room, and you've handcuffed yourself as far as planning goes.

Steinjr has the right idea... have several vignette scenes with the railroad running through them. Hide as much of the return track as possible, either on a lower level (with staging - much more difficult now that you've built benchwork) or just hidden behind backdrop.

[RobL]

Squid:

Thanks for the reply... I put some serious thought into both your comments as well as Steins comments... and now I have a headache!

I am glad you told me I have too much track... I *knew* that, but yet I kept adding more switches, more sidings, more industry... it is what I do, and it is not what I really want for the layout though...

So... I cleared the design... and played for over 3 hours tonight, and I am coming up empty (hence the headache!)...

Yes, I did build benchwork, but it is easily disconnected and reconfigurable, so I am not married to that configuration, although in a perfect world I could build a suitable plan based on that benchwork... alas, it looks like I am going to have to do a couple things:

(1) accept that the benchwork will need reconfiguration
(2) reduce the track footprint, maybe significantly?

I had some real cool thoughts about a single track running about 3" higher than a road that runs parallel to that track and I started laying that out and then I get to the corners and it just looks and feels weird running around the corners for some reason...

Could I be of some "trouble" and ask both of you guys a *huge* favor... could you sketch out a couple of "starting points" for me based on what you think I am looking for? I feel at this point I need a kick-start to get my juices flowing, because no doubt I am at a dead-end... I am starting to wonder if running trains continuously is causing me more grief and aggravation than it is worth... I just can't get a turnaround to look decent in my eyes... I *never* thought I'd want to do a point-to-point design, but I wonder...

I wish I was playing hockey tonight... need to take some frustration out on some pucks! Argh!

Thanks,
--Rob.

[steinjr]

As I understand your description of the room, and the track plan, your room looks like this:



Is that correct?

Here is your original plan - converted to jpg and scaled down - there is a 30" aisle (not shown) all along the bottom of the plan.



Here is a rough attempt at fitting in a long(ish) one-around continuous run mainline with longish, but not so deep scenes into the room:


Here is another idea - doing more of a walk-around table instead of an around-the-walls shelf style layout (with a section of the layout at the left having two lines through it):



A third idea - point to point instead of continuous run - wide curves, double use of the aisle leading to the sump pump:


A fourth idea - having a small section where you have over/under tracks - possibly with the lower level hidden:


(For the last plan the caption is misleading - curves are 30" in the corners, 24" in the over/under part on the peninsula).

Aisles are fairly narrow in some of these sketches - this is just to get some discussion started :-)

Smile,
Stein

[RobL]

Stein:

Wow, wow, wow! Thanks boatloads! I really like your approaches to the "problem"... versions 1 and 2 are really appealing to me... I am going to mock those up in AnyRail and see where that goes... no doubt I am looking at rearranging my benchwork, but that is quite alright... I built it so it can be reconfigured "somewhat easily".

You were just about spot-on with the room dimensions, with the exception of the "door", which is 30", not 36", but I don't think that fundamentally changes any of the concepts. There is no physical door, it is just an opening from the laundry room.

One good thing about some of those 24" aisles is that it would encourage me to stay in shape and not put on any extra weight that would be a bummer to not be able to get to the back on the train board,

Again, I *really* appreciate your effort... I believe it is the launchpad I needed to "think differently"... there is no doubt I was stuck in a corner thinking only one way, and that way wasn't going to work!

Off to run errands now, but I'll post some images of my attempts in AnyRail based on your concepts later when I get back behind the computer...

--Rob.

[Mr Fixit]

Hi Rob,

Just a few thoughts following my reading of the postings so far.

Given your desire to model Vermont/New England then less track is more.

Try thinking like the Engineer who built the line. You need to get your trackage from Point A to Point B and beyond while spending the absolute minimum on trackage, switches, earthworks, bridges and signalling to get the job done safely. You also need to consider keeping curvature and grades to a minimum in order that your rail network is economical to run and conserve your limited capital budget to make earning a return on invested capital easier to achieve. Try thinking like Monty Burns from the Simpsons.
I have roughly calculated that your stipulated 30" accessway to your sump pump is costing you just over 47 square feet and a shocking 25% of your layout room.

I suggest that you consider running trackage round the corner on a narrowed shelf only 8" to 12" wide and access the sump pump at 45* to the walls. Refer to Model railroad Planning 2010 and Tony Koester's Editorial Narrow-Mindedness on pages 6 & 7 for more information. Photograph the corner to show us all the pipework.

I am also concerned by the "open doorway to the laundry room" as a source of high humidity [along with the sump pump] and its potential effects upon your layout structure, scenery, trackwork, locomotives, and wiring as I am assuming that where there is a washing machine there is a tumble drier and or wet washing drying. I dont think that any of us would want you to discover your layout backdrop with oversize condensation drops and streaks running down the walls.

I hope this helps.
Mark

[RobL]

Mark:

The sump pump is enclosed in a "closet"... I suppose I could tilt that corner and reduce the aisle up to the point of reasonable access to the sump closet and get back some of that stolen 47 sq. feet! I do have shelving on that wall as well, so it isn't a "total loss" of space, but I do admit, when the building inspector stated we needed to add the sump hole, I was not happy... I knew it was going to reduce the available space.

I do share your concerns about the humidity, and I do have a dehumidifier that I can run if and when necessary... interestingly though, the way the foundation had to be poured for the addition, this section sits about 8" lower than the rest of the basement and for whatever reason the temperature and humidity seem to remain constant year round... I don't know why, but seeing as though an activity that can be harmed by humidity takes place there, I am not going to complain! I've monitored the temperature and relative humidity in that space all four seasons as well as when the washer and dryer are running and the sump hole is filling up and emptying and it stays fairly constant... I did seal the walls before the room was framed and drywalled, so I am not sure if that helps, but anyway, long story short is that the room is one of the most stable temperature and RH wise in the entire house.

Stein:

I have taken to concept #2... my time at the computer today has resulted in my take on your original concept... I added some sidings and put down some placeholders for what I think might look good in the scenes:

   

I am not sure about that rats nest I made at the bottom, and I am thinking I might extend the siding from the "Green Mtn RR Depot" to go into the tunnel I added at the bottom left is that will disappear to a lower level for staging (maybe...)... anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I have done here and how it might be improved further... thanks again for getting my juices flowing in a positive manner... because last night when I went to bed, I was frustrated and I am in a much better place now!

Thanks,
--Rob.

[Mr Fixit]

Rob

Dont go to bed frustrated, but let your subconscious 'dream up' the solution for you.

Mark