Researching the Denver & Rio Grande Western

[Svein]

My girlfriend bought a D&RGW steam engine and some cars on a MR show a while back, and she wants to build her own layout based on the D&RGW. This will be her first layout, and she doesn't have any knowledge at all about the prototype. I'll have to admit that neither have I, so I can't be of much help there. She has done some searching on the Internet, but there's so much information out there, and she doesn't know where to start.

It would be very much appreciated if anyone can help us getting started, put us on the right track so to speak (pun intended). Does anyone have any recommendations on what books we should order, any links to interesting and relevant sites online, or where we can get information, pics, plans and historical facts about the D&RGW in the late 20s and early 30s? It would really help if we could narrow down the search field a little, it's rather overwhelming as it is right now.

Thanks, guys!

Svein

[FCIN]

Svein;

Here's a couple of links to start you off:

DRGW.net: http://www.drgw.net/

Rio Grande Modeling & Historical Society: http://www.drgw.org/

There is also a Yahoo Group DRGW that may be helpful

[jwb]

Is the steam loco narrow gauge or standard? It's worth pointing out that for a long time, the period between about 1910 and 1930 was considered the "lost period" on the D&RGW, since very few photos have come down from that time. Otto Perry is the big exception. His photos are searchable on line at the Denver Public Library, you can see an example at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=any&CISOBOX1=still+image&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOOP2=all&CISOBOX2=perry%2C+otto%2C+1894-1970&CISOFIELD2=creato&CISOROOT=all&t=s">http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm4/r ... OT=all&t=s</a><!-- m -->

Playing with the search can get you some good photo results, but D&RGW is a very, very big subject.

[Svein]

Thanks guys!

She's already found the drgw.net and the drgw.org sites, but she's having a little trouble finding what she's looking for. In particular old pictures of the station areas and surroundings. She haven't decided on a particular location yet, but she wants a small station with a turntable and an engine house, some desert scenery and also some mountains.

It's narrow gauge, she has the C-19 #345 from Blackstone Models along with some of their freight cars. According to the booklet that came with the engine, it was re-lettered #345 in 1924. It also says that the D&RGW operated in Utah, so we're probably looking at somewhere between Grand Junction and Salt Lake City, maybe one of the branch lines.

Thanks for the info about Otto Perry and the Yahoo Group, didn't think of that!

Svein

[jwb]

The D&RGW as a narrow gauge in Utah was only in the 1880s, I believe. It was standard gauged by the early 1890s. This was the D&RGW Railway. It was reorganized as the Rio Grande Western and then merged with the Denver & Rio Grande to form the later D&RGW in 1920. The D&RGW Railroad narrow gauge lines by the 1920s were roughly in a circle in south-central Colorado and northern New Mexico, none in Utah.

[MountainMan]

My girlfriend bought a D&RGW steam engine and some cars on a MR show a while back, and she wants to build her own layout based on the D&RGW. This will be her first layout, and she doesn't have any knowledge at all about the prototype. I'll have to admit that neither have I, so I can't be of much help there. She has done some searching on the Internet, but there's so much information out there, and she doesn't know where to start.

It would be very much appreciated if anyone can help us getting started, put us on the right track so to speak (pun intended). Does anyone have any recommendations on what books we should order, any links to interesting and relevant sites online, or where we can get information, pics, plans and historical facts about the D&RGW in the late 20s and early 30s? It would really help if we could narrow down the search field a little, it's rather overwhelming as it is right now.

Thanks, guys!

Svein

Just pick up most any issue of Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette - there is almost always a layout from the D&RGW featured, as well as tons of books and videos about it. Just a single Google or Bing request will net you enough information to keep you busy for a long, long time.

[jwb]

Thanks guys!

She haven't decided on a particular location yet, but she wants a small station with a turntable and an engine house, some desert scenery and also some mountains.

There aren't that many places with all those -- turntables were actually less common on narrow gauges, especially in the desert! But Embudo, NM on the Santa Fe branch might be a possibility.

[Svein]

Wow, thanks a lot guys! This is all new and exiting information for us. The desert / mountain ideas are just some elements she wants on her layout, they don't have to be near each other on the map, as she wants to build different layout sections with different scenery on each. We've been looking around in Utah for interesting places to model, but now it looks like she has to start over in another state. Not that she minds, she's actually quite exited about it, and has already begun looking at track plans she found on ghostdepot.com. Too bad it's almost 10pm here now, and she has to leave early for work tomorrow...

Svein

[Russ Bellinis]

I don't know if you will find D&RGW running through real desert with narrow gauge in the 1920's, but you can gert a good idea of the scenery by going to the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad web page.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cumbrestoltec.com/scenery">http://www.cumbrestoltec.com/scenery</a><!-- m -->

The scenery looks more like a high plateau/ foothills leading into the mountains.

[Svein]

Thanks, Russ, great link! This kind of generic scenery photos is just what she's looking for, to get an idea of the surrounding landscape.

Svein

[MountainMan]

You might as well look up narrow gauge railroads in Colorado, since the equipment, structures, turntables, yards and so forth were pretty much interchangeable and the D&RG was involved with a major portion of them. Even outfits like the Florence and Cripple Creek started out with second-hand narrow gauge rolling stock and locos from the D&RG,which was standard gauging much of it's mainline trackage at the time.

One of the responders said here that turntables were uncommon on narrow gauge railroads. In fact, the opposite is true. Narrow gauge railroads often operated in mountainous territory where space was at a premium, and depended on turntables to reverse their engines because wye's took up a lot of flat real estate which just was't available.

In fact, one mining line installed a turntable in conjunction with a switchback in order to get ore cars up and down to the mines.

Short Line and Narrow Gauge Gazette has hundreds of photos of old turntables, and thousands of narrow gauge photos for reference, including virtually any type of terrain you envision.

For additional photos and links that might be useful, look up the Narrow Gauge Circle on the internet - it takes you through the entire Rocky Mountain circuit of narrow gauge railroads serving the mountain mining communities, and you will find desert shots as well since much of Colorado is arid.

[Sumpter250]

"C-19 class Consoidation, 345, an 1881-vintage loco. In June of 1950, she was assigned as the Durango switcher, so that loco would be expected to operate somewhere in the Durango area." ( "Colorado Memories of the narrow gauge circle" )
Carstens Publications, Fredon-Springdale Road, Fredon Township, P O Box 700, Newton N,J, 07860, published "Colorado Memories of the narrow gauge circle". ISBN 911868-59-3. Lots of photos, lots of towns and depots, bridges, turntables,and lots of "scenery".
Even if modeling a generic DRGW layout, I think you would find just about everything you'd need in this book.

[MountainMan]

Try this:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.narrowgauge.org/">http://www.narrowgauge.org/</a><!-- m -->

or this:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.drgwrr.com/">http://www.drgwrr.com/</a><!-- m -->

[jwb]

I think the question was about the D&RGW narrow gauge in the late 1920s. The turntables I'm aware of at that time were at Durango, Gunnison, Salida, Alamosa, Ouray, Marshall Pass, and Embudo. There was one more at Ridgway on the RGS, which for part of that time was opereated as a division of the D&RGW. The one at Chama had been removed by then, I think. Terminals at Farmington, Silverton, Pagosa Springs, Monarch, Montrose, Lake City, Villa Grove, Baldwin, Crested Butte, and Santa Fe had wyes. Floresta had a turntable that had been taken out of service, and locos ran in reverse from the terminal there. Same goes for important midpoints at Cumbres, Sargents, Cimarron, Cerro Summit, and Sapinero. Same goes for Telluride, Rico, Dolores, and Pandora on the RGS. Some of these points had turntables earlier, but not by the late 1920s, since the D&RGW had been replacing 2-8-0s with larger 2-8-2s that didn't fit. Turntables are expensive. Land is cheap. Wyes are cheap. I believe my post was accurate -- and it goes just as much for other narrow gauges, which were intended to be cheap.

[MountainMan]

I think the question was about the D&RGW narrow gauge in the late 1920s. The turntables I'm aware of at that time were at Durango, Gunnison, Salida, Alamosa, Ouray, Marshall Pass, and Embudo. There was one more at Ridgway on the RGS, which for part of that time was opereated as a division of the D&RGW. The one at Chama had been removed by then, I think. Terminals at Farmington, Silverton, Pagosa Springs, Monarch, Montrose, Lake City, Villa Grove, Baldwin, Crested Butte, and Santa Fe had wyes. Floresta had a turntable that had been taken out of service, and locos ran in reverse from the terminal there. Same goes for important midpoints at Cumbres, Sargents, Cimarron, Cerro Summit, and Sapinero. Same goes for Telluride, Rico, Dolores, and Pandora on the RGS. Some of these points had turntables earlier, but not by the late 1920s, since the D&RGW had been replacing 2-8-0s with larger 2-8-2s that didn't fit. Turntables are expensive. Land is cheap. Wyes are cheap. I believe my post was accurate -- and it goes just as much for other narrow gauges, which were intended to be cheap.

You left out Colorado Springs, major terminus for the mountain railways from the north, which had a large turntable and roundhouse. Denver and Pueblo did as well, and all three of these major cities handled narrow gauge traffic as well as standard gauge during their heyday, as did Florence, Cripple Creek, Victor, Canon City, Rockvale, Chandler, Williamsburg, Radiant, Buena Vista, Leadville, Westcliffe, Silvercliffe and a number of other towns and cities.

Wyes were not, in fact, "cheap" at all. In mountain mining towns, they took up a great deal of prime real estate, and as locos and their trains got larger and longer, enlarging the existing wyes to handle them became problematic within already existing, often growing towns. A good example of a non-expandable wye is still in existence at Anaconda, between Cripple Creek and Victor.

What it comes down to in the end is always the same - it's up to modeler to decide what he wants to portray.