Freelance 2012
#1
I have made up my mind about the next evolutionary step of my layout to last at least until end of 2012.

- The current layout will be backdated into the 1950th. The prototypical reference to the south of LA will remain unchanged. However, it will be a freelance layout again.
- The track plan will not be changed unless I find minor modification vital to the overall layout impression or operation.
- I do not plan to model prototypical buildings because I learned my skills to do brick buildings after prototypes are insufficient. I will go with freelance brick buildings based on DPM and Cornerstone modules. We will see if and how well I can create an overall impression of south LA in the 50th.
- Operation will be performed by Santa Fe HH600, HH1000, S2 and S4. I am undecided at this time if I will/can modify a SF S4 into a LAJ S4. It is at least not mandatory for south LA. SF did serve that area primary with HH600 and HH1000 engines. The Atlas HH660 can be stripped down to plain black and an early SF paint scheme with minor tiger stripes (at the sill only) should be doable. An even older paint scheme has a white sill only. That will even more easy to do but will stretch the prototype into the 50th very much.
- The four track staging yard / north yard will stay untouched without scenery. May be it will get a simple matching backdrop.

The thing I need most urgent are photos of the streets and industries in south LA in the 50th. I have to get a feeling about all the details like traffic signs (e.g. yellow markings for no parking?), street markings, security gates (none?) in the 50th. Looks like there are lots of photos of the really historic LA but the 1950 are barely covered.

I will continue this thread as my work will progress.
Reinhard
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#2
Reinhard,

It's not A Santa Fe layout but Bob Smaus SP Los Angles layout is set in the 1950's, might be worth a look at
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bobsgardenpath.com/trains.html">http://www.bobsgardenpath.com/trains.html</a><!-- m -->

Bruce
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#3
The evolution continues....

So are we going to see your modern buildings across the pond and onto GaryS layout???
Be Wise Beware Be Safe
"Mountain Goat" Greg

http://oregontrunk.blogspot.com/
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#4
Reinhard, Sounds good. Just for the record the "tiger stripe" scheme is the S.P. black with orange stripes like Bob Smaus modeled in his S.P. layout. Santa Fe's was called "zebra" stripe because it was black and silver.
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#5
Russ Bellinis Wrote:Reinhard, Sounds good. Just for the record the "tiger stripe" scheme is the S.P. black with orange stripes like Bob Smaus modeled in his S.P. layout. Santa Fe's was called "zebra" stripe because it was black and silver.

Russ, those zebra stripes and the engine under the stripes are getting a problem to me. It is my intention to model SF in south LA. All those service had it's origin in the 1st street yard and was performed with HH1000.
My current knowledge is:
1. SF owned the HH600 2300-2302 and the HH1000 2310-2321.
2. Atlas has only HH600/660 models. No HH1000 (it is longer than the HH6x0) available
3. Atlas has no HH600 with tiger stripes but engines that could be easy stripped to all black (did so on two engines)
4. I find historic photos of the pre zebra time with a silver stripe at the sill
e.g. http://web.mac.com/ckjordan/The_Patch/Pa...%20res.jpg
5. I find historic photos with a strip of zebra at the sill but not on the hoods (I have a book of the ALCO HH with tons of photos)
e.g. http://web.mac.com/ckjordan/The_Patch/Pa...%20res.jpg
6. Many of my valuable 40' boxcars (Kadee) and automobiles are made 1953-1957

I plan the following concessions:
a. use Atlas HH600 for SF HH1000
b. avoid the complicated zebra at the hoods by using the schemes 4 and 5

That will lead to the following failures
1. The engine is to short (easy to spot at the louvers)
2. Engines will have a scheme not used at about 1955ff as shown by boxcars and automobiles

I think that is an acceptable compromise for a freelance layout to be made of DPM modulares :roll:

btw. This http://www.patchrailroad.net/The_Patch/P...pe.html#17 is what impressed me most. We will see if DPM can be helpful...
Reinhard
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#6
Actually, "Santa Fe in South LA" isn't a geographically precise location, though I understand you're freelancing. But this also affects your prototype choices. "South LA" to a person who lives in the area generally would mean the area roughly south of Santa Barbara Avenue (1950s) or Martin Luther King Bl (now). The Santa Fe's route through the area was part of its Harbor District, which went from Slauson Junction west to the South Bay beach cities and then back east through Torrance to Wilmington. Road freights operated on this line. Common locos in the 1950s would have been GP7s, Baldwin centercabs, and even FM H16-44s. The more modern Baldwin and Alco S series switchers could also be found. The area you're talking about that used the HHs was farther north and closer to downtown Los Angeles. Up through the 1970s, the Santa Fe served auto plants and aerospace companies on the Harbor line, which could make for some potentially interesting industries. (Actually, a very interesting location on this line was at Wise, near Manhattan Beach, where the Santa Fe Harbor District crossed the Pacific Electric El Segundo line. By the 1950s this would have been freight only, but it gives you some potentially interesting equipment comparisons nevertheless.)
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#7
jwb Wrote:Actually, "Santa Fe in South LA" isn't a geographically precise location,...
Thanks a lot for that lesson! I did use the term in a very different way. I mend the area north of Santa Monica Fwy, east of Alameda, west of the river and south of Palmetto. How would you call that area?
Reinhard
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#8
I believe city planners would have called it the "warehouse district" in the 1950s, the "loft district" now. Railroaders had their own names for the specific areas within it.
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#9
jwb Wrote:... "warehouse district" in the 1950s...
Thank you very much.

ps. I did find this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Los_Angeles. That makes very clear how wrong I used that term. Thanks again for correcting me.
Reinhard
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#10
mountaingoatgreg Wrote:The evolution continues....

So are we going to see your modern buildings across the pond and onto GaryS layout???

Greg, I was thinking the same exact thing!!!!! :tada:
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#11
Gary S Wrote:
mountaingoatgreg Wrote:The evolution continues....

So are we going to see your modern buildings across the pond and onto GaryS layout???

Greg, I was thinking the same exact thing!!!!! :tada:

No problem. The really modern buildings are gone a long time ago. But they were styrene cubes only. Most of the current buildings are inspired by prototype. I will be glad to ship what ever you want when I am replacing them with brick buildings. I hope you are not disappointed when you have a closer look..... Confusedhock:
Reinhard
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#12
Reinhard, I looked into my copy of what Santa Fe modelers call the "Worley Book" The actual title is Iron Horses Of The Santa Fe Trail by E.D. Worley. It covers virtually all of the Santa Fe locomotives built prior to 1963 or 1964, if there are photographs available. The copyright was 1965. 2316 was in the 2303 class which would have been an Alco S-1 I think. One problem is that not all of the pictures of locomotives are dated, so I'm not sure when they received the full zebra stripe scheme. There is a picture of 2330 which is an Alco S-2, I think, identified as photographed in 1948 in Los Angeles. It is in the same paint scheme as the picture of 2316 you linked to. There is also a photograph of #2353 taken the same year in Chicago with a similar paint scheme except that it has a thin stripe just on the top 1/3 of the sill. All of the pictures of Switch engines that have the full zebra stripe schemes that are dated a identify dates of 1959 to 1963, although most of the switchers had the blue & yellow scheme by 1963.

I looked through Early Diesel Days by McCall. Diesels on the Santa Fe between 1935 & 1955. The book shows switch engines with the simple paint schemes between the late 1930's through the end of WW2, but all of the pictures of units delivered after 1950 were painted with full zebra stripe schemes. t appears that by the early 1950's all switch engines had been painted in the zebra scheme.

I have done Santa Fe engines in Zebra stripe. It is fiddly, and takes time, but is a relatively easy paint job. Basically you just paint the unit
black, and then apply the stripes with decals.
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#13
Russ Bellinis Wrote:...It appears that by the early 1950's all switch engines had been painted in the zebra scheme.

I have done Santa Fe engines in Zebra stripe. It is fiddly, and takes time, but is a relatively easy paint job. Basically you just paint the unit
black, and then apply the stripes with decals.

Russ, I agree that they should have the full stripes. The samples I posted are dated some time earlier. The nose of the hood and the backside of the cabin must be free of any details to apply the stripe decals. I am afraid to break the very fine grab irons etc. when I remove and later reinstall them. I am also unsure how well I will apply the decals. That is my motivation the go with a too early scheme.
The time "1950s" is unintentional defined by some of the rolling stock and some automobiles I have. May be it is worth ignoring some wrong (expensive) Kadee box cars and leave some 1950s automobiles in the cabinet. That would be helpful to declare the layout in the later 1940s. The truck form "classic metal works" fit the 1940s perfect. My limousine collection may need a careful eye.
I have a couple of Accurail 40' Wood Outside-Braced Box Cars. Did those old cars still exist in the late 1940s?

I have got some questions about the streets in the warehouse district at that time (lets say late 1940s).
- Was parking already a problem and "no parking" signs could be found everywhere?
- Was the yellow stripe at the edge of the walkway already used to indicate "no parking"?
- Did all streets already have the full road markers (white at the sides and yellow to separate opposing traffic etc.)?
Reinhard
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#14
Oh, yes, parking was always a problem! It's always been the usual thing for rail crews to have to go into factories, stores, warehouses, etc and get the driver to move a car or truck that's blocking the track. In general, vehicles should be parked just barely far enough from the track to clear the rail equipment -- and maybe for photos, blocking it!

Yellow stripes on curbs vary from city to city. They often mean no parking within 20 feet of a fire hydrant, but this isn't consistent. Red stripes on the curb are common for no parking in LA. No parking signs were certainly around in the 1950s. Check out the Blair Line site for authentic 1950s street and highway regulatory signs. The stripes in the center of streets and highways would be for the more highly traveled ones, and wider ones. Narrow ones in an industrial district often have no center or lane markers.

Yes, the Accurail outside braced boxcar was very common in the 1950s and early 1960s. One visual feature of a 1950s freight train was the "sawtooth" impression given by boxcars of different inside heights -- by the late 1940s, 10 feet 6 inches was almost standard, but many boxcars of lower heights were still in the mix. In fact, some railroads still couldn't handle 10 foot 6 inch high cars, and the SP, New Haven, B&O, and others stayed with 10 feet on 40 foot cars. This is barely noticeable in HO size, but if you pay careful attention to car height, you can see it.
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#15
I have the Blair signs of the period 1930-50 on order at Walthers. It is also great I can reuse my Accurail cars. I will use those cars to replace the end of the 50th.
The "yellow" line on curbs was a mistake. I mend the red line extreme prominent today. I understood there is no reason to remove the red line and the no parking signs will get an update to have the right signs of that time.
Reinhard
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