More Car (Auto) Advice

[RobertInOntario]

I know this is a train forum but I've always received good car advice here too! So here's my question:

My wife & I have two "aging" cars with fairly high mileage. We have a 2003 Subaru Legacy (our family car) and a 1998 Honda Civic (which I often use). Here are their descriptions:

• 2003 Subaru Legacy -- has about 185,000 km (about 116,000 miles) on it
-- body in good shape, very little rust but lots of scratches
-- has had several costly repairs during 2009-2011 -- (new transmission, has had the clutch replaced twice) and there may be other things to go on it too such as a possible steering problem that my local garage has been monitoring for us.
-- otherwise running fine now

• 1998 Honda Civic
-- has 215,000 km (about 134,000 miles) on it
-- has had very few major repairs, mostly regular maintenance
-- body is beginning to rust, especially bad around rear fenders. Like the Subaru, it has many scratches (thanks to living in a big city!) The hood & 1-2 other areas also has some rust and/or paint problems
-- otherwise it runs very well & smoothly!

One of these will need replacing soon -- but, based on the above, which one should we replace? Should we keep the Subaru going and replace the Honda since it's older and in rougher condition, or just wait it out another 2-3 years? The advantage of replacing one of them (probably the Honda) right now is that this makes us in control of our circumstances, rather than having us suddenly scramble to buy a newer car if it suddenly dies.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Rob

[faraway]

Both cars have a low financial value but both cars are still very useful. If you feel comfortable with old cars with lots of scratches it is best to keep both. There is no more economic car than an old but reliable functioning car!
The be prepared for the possible break down of one of them I would
- set the money aside to buy a replacement of the more expensive one
- makeup your mind of 2-3 possible replacements (brand, model etc.) for both of them
- makeup your mind for 2-3 possible dealers to buy a possible replacement
That list might be readjusted twice a year

Evaluate the saved money and invite your wife for a great dinner

[FiatFan]

possible steering problem
-- otherwise running fine now

Rob

Fix it or get rid of it. No matter how well it's running, if you can't control the direction, it's going to cause serious problems.

As far as replacement, can you start putting away an estimated car payment now until you're ready to buy? It will mean that much more of a down payment and a lower payment when you do replace the car.

Tom

[Russ Bellinis]

If you see rust on the car, put it up on blocks and look carefully at the underside of the car particularly around the suspension parts. Most cars built prior to 1960 had frames made of massive steel channel, and the body was just sheet metal that mounted to the massive frame. In the 1960s the manufacturers started going to unit body designs where the body was the frame. By boxing and triangulating the sheet metal they could build a stronger, lighter frame with the unit body design or as the Europeans call it a "monocoque." The problem is that being sheet metal, it will rust out. What you want to look carefully at are the points where the front suspension mounts to the unit body. If you see rust there, poke at it with a screw driver to see if it is just surface rust or if it is rotted through. My son in law had a Suzuki that he brought out from Chicago. He thought it was in pretty good shape, but the tires were worn out. I started to change the tires and we discovered that as I jacked the car up, it would "sink" back down. My hydraulic jack was holding, but the unit body had rusted out at the point where the front suspension was mounted to the car body, and the "frame" was bending under the weight of the car. The next thing to go would have been a catastrophic failure of the front suspension! If the front suspension mounting points are good and solid, there is no reason to just trade the car off.

I think it is a good idea when you are making car payments, and the car is paid off, keep making those same car payments into your savings account. That way, you have a "car fund" to cover repairs and when it is time to replace the car, the money is there to either pay cash or make a large down payment, and lower your monthly payments. That car fund can also reduce the "sticker shock" of the new car prices.

[yellowlynn]

Living in the south puts a different perspective on things, so this is just my thoughts. I don't know much about Subaru's, as not too many buy them here in this area.. Toyota and Honda are well known for their at least 190-200,000 life, or more. If the Civic runs good now, without my seeing the rust, I would judge several more years of good running. There are spray cans of sealer and primer that COULD Possibly stop the rust.

Just thoughts and opinion/ideas. Take it for what it's worth.

Lynn

[RobertInOntario]

Both cars have a low financial value but both cars are still very useful. If you feel comfortable with old cars with lots of scratches it is best to keep both. There is no more economic car than an old but reliable functioning car!
The be prepared for the possible break down of one of them I would
- set the money aside to buy a replacement of the more expensive one
- makeup your mind of 2-3 possible replacements (brand, model etc.) for both of them
- makeup your mind for 2-3 possible dealers to buy a possible replacement
That list might be readjusted twice a year

Evaluate the saved money and invite your wife for a great dinner

Thanks, Reinhard! I certainly agree that it's very useful & advantageous to have old but reliable cars, especially in a big city where they get dinged up a lot. If I had a new, shiny car, I'd be stressed out all the time that it was going to get damaged or scratched.

[RobertInOntario]

Living in the south puts a different perspective on things, so this is just my thoughts. I don't know much about Subaru's, as not too many buy them here in this area.. Toyota and Honda are well known for their at least 190-200,000 life, or more. If the Civic runs good now, without my seeing the rust, I would judge several more years of good running. There are spray cans of sealer and primer that COULD Possibly stop the rust.
Just thoughts and opinion/ideas. Take it for what it's worth.
Lynn

Thanks, Lynn & Russ.

I've been assured from my mechanics (at my local garage) as well as a body shop, that the Honda is structurally OK, i.e. the rust is not a safety issue. I do think the Honda would keep going for another 2-3 years easily, with regular maintenance.

But having said that, the winters do put a LOT of wear & tear on the cars, especially their bodies due to the road salt. My neighbour (who is simply concerned about us), keeps telling me that we should replace the Honda ASAP because it's gone through 14 Canadian winters & that there's probably something ready to "go" on it.

[MasonJar]

Hi Rob,

We just went through this, although the vehicle we wanted to replace was a newer Honda van that had day-to-day operating costs that we felt were too high.

I would replace the one in worse shape overall. For me that means the body - not just cosmetics, but the uni-body condition referenced above. Many of the newer cars have much better rust protection (important to us in the salt belt ) than those from even 12 - 15 years ago (i.e. pre-2000).

I would advise that you look up the internet forums of the vehicle you want to buy, and see what people are talking about. I know this has been immensely helpful for my VWs, and I wish I had done it earlier. Maybe it would have convinced us to avoid the Honda van too. Now, don't get me wrong, it was a great vehicle for what it was, but ultimately not the right fit for our family.

The forums can also be helpful in answering questions like you've posed above. E.g. My 98 Civic is in this shape, with this many km. What is the reasonable remaining life expectancy? What issues should I anticipate next?

Also, if your independent garage is good and trustworthy, ask about fixing existing or replacing with quality used parts. I have started to go this way more and more, and saved much $$$ over straight dealer shop replacement.

For the record, my cars are now a 2001 Golf TDI (217,000km) and a 2005 Jetta Wagon TDI (160,000km). I have no doubt that my daughters will learn to drive on one or the other (they are currently 7 & 10).

Andrew

[Tyson Rayles]

Being as both those cars are VERY low mileage by my standards (last car I got rid of had 387,000 and the current one has 179,000 and have no intention of getting rid of it) I don't guess I can offer any advice as I wouldn't consider either car in need of being traded. I go by the 25/250 rule, if it is more than 25 years old or has more than 250,000 miles on it then it might need to be traded otherwise no.

[RobertInOntario]

Being as both those cars are VERY low mileage by my standards (last car I got rid of had 387,000 and the current one has 179,000 and have no intention of getting rid of it) I don't guess I can offer any advice as I wouldn't consider either car in need of being traded. I go by the 25/250 rule, if it is more than 25 years old or has more than 250,000 miles on it then it might need to be traded otherwise no.

Thanks, Tyson -- that sounds like a good rule! Although you still have to factor in our harsh winters with road salt, etc.

[RobertInOntario]

Hi Rob,
We just went through this, although the vehicle we wanted to replace was a newer Honda van that had day-to-day operating costs that we felt were too high.
I would replace the one in worse shape overall. For me that means the body - not just cosmetics, but the uni-body condition referenced above. Many of the newer cars have much better rust protection (important to us in the salt belt ) than those from even 12 - 15 years ago (i.e. pre-2000).
I would advise that you look up the internet forums of the vehicle you want to buy, and see what people are talking about. I know this has been immensely helpful for my VWs, and I wish I had done it earlier. Maybe it would have convinced us to avoid the Honda van too. Now, don't get me wrong, it was a great vehicle for what it was, but ultimately not the right fit for our family.
The forums can also be helpful in answering questions like you've posed above. E.g. My 98 Civic is in this shape, with this many km. What is the reasonable remaining life expectancy? What issues should I anticipate next?
Also, if your independent garage is good and trustworthy, ask about fixing existing or replacing with quality used parts. I have started to go this way more and more, and saved much $$$ over straight dealer shop replacement.
For the record, my cars are now a 2001 Golf TDI (217,000km) and a 2005 Jetta Wagon TDI (160,000km). I have no doubt that my daughters will learn to drive on one or the other (they are currently 7 & 10).
Andrew

Thanks, Andrew. I'll consider those forums. When we are ready to replace one car, I was thinking of narrowing it down to 2-3 models. We're quite pleased with our Honda, so I'm tempted to stay with Honda (the Honda Fit is a possibility). I really like Mazdas, say the Mazda 3 or 5. Consumers Reports and the Lemon Aid books are also useful references. Based on the mileage you've got on your cars, and on what other folks say, maybe we don't need to panic yet! Rob

[MasonJar]

Thanks, Andrew. I'll consider those forums. When we are ready to replace one car, I was thinking of narrowing it down to 2-3 models. We're quite pleased with our Honda, so I'm tempted to stay with Honda (the Honda Fit is a possibility). I really like Mazdas, say the Mazda 3 or 5. Consumers Reports and the Lemon Aid books are also useful references. Based on the mileage you've got on your cars, and on what other folks say, maybe we don't need to panic yet! Rob

Hi Rob,

We looked at the Honda Fit as well, but decided it was just not enough. We did not need the huge capacity of the van, but still wanted to tow things. The Fit is just too small for that (although interior room is huge). The Mazda 5 could be a good choice too.

But we also decided that we would not buy brand new again. Let someone else take care of the depreciation...! So we ended up with the 2005 Jetta Wagon. All maintenance up to date including timing belt at time of sale. Even with tax, and extras that I have to install like the tow bar, we still came out with a price less than 2/3 of a new base Honda Fit, that gets 40 mpg in the city, and over 50 on the highway.

Plus, I always wanted one and it's fun to drive.

Andrew

[RobertInOntario]

Here's another question then. I we decide to keep the Honda going for another 2-3 years, is it worth investing $1,000 to $2,000 in fixing the worst rust areas? This would be mostly for cosmetic reasons but I'm sure it would run even better if we fixed the rusty fenders, etc. :-) :-)

[Tyson Rayles]

"Thanks, Tyson -- that sounds like a good rule! Although you still have to factor in our harsh winters with road salt, etc."

They use road salt here as well Rob. Last year was mild so not so much but most years the salt is used quite liberally, couldn't go anywhere in these mountains without it. I'm sure your season is a little longer though.

Myself I would fix the rust as it ought to help (if done properly) to slow down the spread of it.

[faraway]

Here's another question then. I we decide to keep the Honda going for another 2-3 years, is it worth investing $1,000 to $2,000 in fixing the worst rust areas? This would be mostly for cosmetic reasons but I'm sure it would run even better if we fixed the rusty fenders, etc. :-) :-)

I would not spend a cent for cosmetic on that car (on any car:-). I did see lots of people that tried fighting rust. It was either only cosmetic at the surface and did not change anything or it was very expensive (e.g. restoration of a high value old timer).

But I assume the structure of the body is stable and fit. We are talking about cosmetic only, do we?