Branch line/ISL

[NSHO]

That plan isn't the greatest cause you're minimizing the amount of yard storage, you'll need to 2 tracks just to store cars on 1 track. You're newer plan makes more sense and you can utilize all your yard tracks and maximize car capacity.

I agree...Here's the second yard idea incorporated into the overall layout.

   
This is becoming a two operator layout!

Thanks
NSHO

[Brakie]

That plan isn't the greatest cause you're minimizing the amount of yard storage, you'll need to 2 tracks just to store cars on 1 track. You're newer plan makes more sense and you can utilize all your yard tracks and maximize car capacity.

A railroad president asked a yardmaster what he saw out his window..The YM replied a busy railroad..

The president replied No,what you see freight that's not moving..

Mr. Bill Thompson
President

SL-SF (Frisco )Railroad

For more see June, 2014 issue of Trains Magazine
--------------------------------
That's what railroaders see in yards.

[lajry]

This latest track plan has no where to do run around moves in the yard or switching area.. Also having the engine service on a switchback is a big no no to the real RRs. Plus your MR is way too small to need class one RR features like a yard lead & arrival/departure track. Use that space for more switching.
My revision of your plan makes the yard more compact & there's more tracks. AND no switchbacks! The yard area also has some industries to work. There is also room for more. The switching area has a run around & a few more switching spots.
Nothing in my plan is "cast in concrete". My plan is just to give you some ideas to think about. Also do more research on the way the real RRs do things.

   

[Rscott417]

That plan isn't the greatest cause you're minimizing the amount of yard storage, you'll need to 2 tracks just to store cars on 1 track. You're newer plan makes more sense and you can utilize all your yard tracks and maximize car capacity.

A railroad president asked a yardmaster what he saw out his window..The YM replied a busy railroad..

The president replied No,what you see freight that's not moving..

Mr. Bill Thompson
President

SL-SF (Frisco )Railroad

For more see June, 2014 issue of Trains Magazine
--------------------------------
That's what railroaders see in yards.

I'm not saying he should load up all that track to make it appear busy. I was making suggestions to the plan he came up with, if anything I was trying to simplify it. Most members here take it upon themselves to completely change plans that others post. His plan has interchange coming in plus cars from the industries and only had 1 track to sort and store all those cars. NSHO I guess you should just listen to him since he has thousands of posts and a witty quote.

[jwb]

I think Andy Sperandeo's column in the August MR is also pertinent -- it seems to me that if you're talking about an ISL, you should also be talking about operation. I think randomly moving cars around a layout like this is likely go get boring -- cars come and go from somewhere else. That means you should be thinking about staging. You have enough room for the layout to be able to replace some of the random industries with some kind of staging, and then think about how to operate the layout in some sort of systematic way: cars come from interchange or off-layout yard, they're switched and delivered, other cars are picked up and returned to the off-layout location. The"interchange" on the sketches above aren't really interchanges, they're just another industry. Staging is where a whole train (or group of cars corresponding to a whole train) comes from "offstage", with all the cars having specific on-layout destinations.

My own view is that people use the term ISL without thinking through what they really mean to do, or even want to do. What sort of prototype activity do you most want to model -- or have you given much thought to that?

[NSHO]

All comments are greatly appreciated. I've gotten in over my head with the addition of the yard and various aspects associated with it. As said before this is where I've struggled the most with my layout.

All I want to do is model and move cars in and out of industries. I am scratching the yard and all things on that side of the bench. Gonna KISS. My random switch list generator will tell me what trains to build. It will tell me what and where to pick up and drop off. I will build the trains with my hands and when it's time to operate I will imagine where the train came from and the many miles it traveled to get here. When the train leaves the industries with empties and loads I will then imagine the destination and further travels the cars will take.

I have changed the subject of this post to represent what I truly wanted when I started this hobby. If a moderator can update the thread title as such, it would be appreciated.

[jwb]

OK, you're using the term "random switchlist generator". Is there a program you can point to on the web where we can see what you mean by it? But when you use the term "random", that concerns me, because cars in the real world don't move at random -- they come from a specific source and go to a specific place to satisfy an economic need. Again, it's hard for me to see how moving cars around at random -- by, say, dealing from a card deck or rolling dice -- is going to be satisfactory over any sort of long term. Naturally, you're entitled to do exactly as you please, but on the other hand, you ask for input.

[NSHO]

Again, poor choice of words. It is a switch list generator using a spreadsheet program of your choice. You initially tell it what cars are set out and it will tell you what to deliver and pick up. Here's a screen shot.

   
I believe this is where I came across it. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/6795">http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/6795</a><!-- m --> Moderators, please forgive me if linking to an external site is wrong.

[Brakie]

My own view is that people use the term ISL without thinking through what they really mean to do, or even want to do. What sort of prototype activity do you most want to model -- or have you given much thought to that?
----------------------------------------------------

As I stated many times 90% of my layouts been ISLs and I'm still not even close to being a "expert" even though I've been studying these things since the early 70s---that's when I read with MR's Kinnickinnic RY and Dock Company and decided ISLs is my cup of tea since I always like "back alley" railroading.

The main goal of any ISL is of course switching industries and for that goal one must keep in mind what is found on a industrial lead (branch line) and follow that basic principle while designing a ISL.

Of course the urban industrial leads is off the main line or secondary track and twist and turns its way through a industrialized area before it stub ends or in some rare cases loops back to the main line or secondary track..

Another choice is a industrial switching railroad such as the Progressive Rail operation at Airlake Industrial park or some types may serve one large industry-St.Mary's Railroad in Georgia is one example.

Regardless the final goal is switching industries.

[NSHO]

KISS

   
Here I will stage the trains (imagination will play a big factor) as the switch list program tells me what to deliver. I can have two trains ready to operate if the session time allows. The returning train, after it's set outs and pick ups, will return to the same track (again imagining the train continuing on to a yard or interchange) to be manipulated with my hands.

[jwb]

Another thing that strikes me is that your industry designations are very generic. You call them manufacturer, distributor, warehouse, and such, which doesn't say much. One of my hobby horses, which people here are all too aware of, is that there's less and less boxcar traffic -- 10-20% overall, though it depends on the region and industry involved. But switching a "boxcar" to a "warehouse" is no longer all that common, especially the multi-story curtain wall design from the 1920s or whenever. The photos of your layout progress show a Railbox, a corn syrup car, and a covered hopper often used for grain or barley. Neither the corn syrup car nor a grain car would go to a "warehouse", although a corn syrup car would go to a certain type of distributor, though not a brick background flat. So I would commend the idea of researching actual industries in the Railbox-Trinity covered hopper era that commonly use such cars and maybe think less of the "usual suspects".

[Brakie]

Another thing that strikes me is that your industry designations are very generic. You call them manufacturer, distributor, warehouse, and such, which doesn't say much. One of my hobby horses, which people here are all too aware of, is that there's less and less boxcar traffic -- 10-20% overall, though it depends on the region and industry involved. But switching a "boxcar" to a "warehouse" is no longer all that common, especially the multi-story curtain wall design from the 1920s or whenever. The photos of your layout progress show a Railbox, a corn syrup car, and a covered hopper often used for grain or barley. Neither the corn syrup car nor a grain car would go to a "warehouse", although a corn syrup car would go to a certain type of distributor, though not a brick background flat. So I would commend the idea of researching actual industries in the Railbox-Trinity covered hopper era that commonly use such cars and maybe think less of the "usual suspects".

The industries I use is based on several short line customer base as well as the annual number of cars handled as found in American Short Line Railway Guide by Edward A. Lewis (Kalmbach) .

My Summerset Ry serves warehouses,a grocery distributor,a plastic plant and a team track (transload track) so,SSR handles boxcars,covered hoppers,tank cars and gons(pipes),coil cars and bulkhead flat cars (lumber) for the transload track.
Total cars handled 1200 annually( 25 cars a week.)

Whereas my Huron River serves two grain elevators,a propane distributor,a tire distributor and a frozen food distributor so HR handles covered hoppers, propane tank cars,reefers and boxcars.Total cars handled annually 1,536 (32 cars a week).

So,NSHO industries is correct based on information found in the Short Line Guide.

[Mike Kieran]

NSHO,

I thought that your original track plan was perfect. The ONLY change that I would have made is to make the warehouse track a facing point instead of a trailing point and I would put that turnout along the wall on the left.. Other than that, you have a perfect track plan.

The middle track of the food processing plant can be used for storage, switching, and overflow as well as tank car unloading since it's 3 feet long. But you could also use the lower tack for tank cars and move the building CD in. Either way, I would say you have a great design.

As my posts suggest, I am a big fan of shoving platform ISLs.

[Chuck]

Personally, I liked the plans with the small yard because it will provide more "action" other than switching out industries. I am not an expert, but the type of yard one would find in an area like this is an industrial yard where the local just needs a few tracks to sort the train to make deliveries easier/more efficient. There wouldn't be a lead, cars would not be stored there unless used for "off-spot," and probably no engine servicing facilities, unless there was a switcher stationed here that took the train from the local and did all the switching. My understanding is the local would come into an industrial area, use the flat yard to sort cars and hold them while doing switching. The local would also use it to build their train for return. This is found on many prototypes that have an industrial area like this, so it would not be out of character to have a small yard. There is a wealth of information in the Layout Design SIG and you can also just use google to find more information on industrial yards.

I like your idea of an interchange track -- I have three on my switching layout to get cars on and off the layout. It is a "universal" industry that accepts all cars and you could use them to bring "foreign" road engines onto your layout, and you can move cars on and off the layout realistically (I use cassettes with my interchanges). It provides another source of freight cars other than an incoming train. The interchange doesn't have to handle dozens of cars -- it could even be a single car dropped there by a neighboring RR that does not have trackage rights on your railroad, but has freight cars that need to go to those industries.

Staging -- if you can fit it, it is a good idea. I saw an article years ago in Model Railroader (I think) about surround staging. Put staging along a wall and use a view block such as a back drop or even industrial buildings to hide it. It could be just a single track to hold your incoming train. The rule of thumb is to have as many staging tracks as you can fit. You could put staging along the left wall (short) and have it come out at the curve along the upper wall, or put it behind the industries along the bottom wall and have it appear along the left wall (short side). Your train length for this type of layout would be short anyway as not all industries are switched every op session so you wouldn't need super long staging tracks. Below is one of my staging yards for my Detroit Connecting -- it is 11" wide and is comprised of five tracks. There are three staging, one through, and one interchange/off-stage industries (salt mine). There will be a removable backdrop in front of it to hide it. It is much more fun if a train actually comes from somewhere and can return - more realistic than just hand sorting cars. Again, there are a lot of articles about staging; a little search will turn up loads of information.



On a final note, who cares if you call your layout an ISL and it doesn't conform to what some people think an ISL looks like. If you want a small yard, put one in. Do what makes you happy -- it is YOUR railroad and you are the one spending money and time to build it. Just my two cents.....

Chuck

[jwb]

On a final note, who cares if you call your layout an ISL and it doesn't conform to what some people think an ISL looks like. If you want a small yard, put one in. Do what makes you happy -- it is YOUR railroad and you are the one spending money and time to build it. Just my two cents.....

Chuck

The problem I have with calling a layout an ISL is that (we're talking opinion here) it becomes a substitute for looking at the prototype and thinking out what you really want to do. I note that the term ISL is probably used more by modelers of US prototype in the UK and elsewhere who are, due to their inability to take a Saturday and go railfanning US prototype, inclined to dream up what they think an industrial district must look like -- thus the multi-story curtain-wall "warehouses" served by squeaky-clean Railboxes, when the prototypes, if not long since torn down, are now condo conversions. Everyone's free to do as they please, but my personal preference is for work by people who challenge themselves to do something different.

The best thing a modeler can do, from my perspective, is go railfanning. The next best is get DVDs with good railfan footage. The third best is search Youtube for railfan scenes that reflect what railroading is really like in the real world. You will find very few clean Railboxes next to brick curtain wall "warehouses". Some guys in the UK might not invite you to their next exhibition, though.

I'm not sure if the best approach to layout design is to cogitate over whether you want two tracks in your yard or three, or whether there should be a facing point or trailing point spur. Some of this is coming from guys who've never built a layout. Here is how I would go at this:

-- Go railfanning. Look at what turns your crank. If you live in the UK, go on Youtube and search for good railfan video.

-- Sketch out a track plan that starts to represent what you most like about what you see.

-- Draw it to scale and cut out scale rectangles to represent locos and cars. Try switching the track plan with the rectangles.

-- Start laying track according to what you think will work based on the above. Make this tentative for a while.

-- Go railfanning again and see if you're any closer to what you enjoy.

-- Rinse. Repeat.