Water tank / Furnace questions (!)

[RobertInOntario]

I've received good car advice on this forum, so now I have some furnace / water tank questions. There are a lot of techy folk on this site, so I thought why not!

Our furnace in our postwar bungalow will need replacing soon, as it's 21 years old. The furnace is still running fine but it actually could break down anytime due to its age. If we replace it before the end of the year with something more efficient, we are eligible for energy-saving rebates of $1600.00.

I'm in touch with a company / contractor whom I trust very much. He specializes in high-energy efficient solutions. He is strongly advising me to rent a Polaris water tank (I can provide more details re its model number if necessary). This is a combo unit that can be used to heat our small house as well as a water tank. We will also have to pay for and install an Air Handler unit, which is pricey.

However, the company that we rent our furnace and water tank from says this is a crazy, expensive and unreliable idea! But my contractor says just the opposite and that the energy company is just doing what is easy and economical for them.

Instead of the Polaris, our energy company is advising us to go with an on-demand wall unit (for hot water) and a high efficiency Carrier Furnace.

After going back & forth several times, it now seems that our energy company actually will (albeit reluctantly?) install the Polaris unit for us. If we go with the Polaris unit, it seems that our upfront installation fees will be high but that our ongoing rental fees will be low (and just the opposite if we follow our energy company's advice).

Can anyone offer any advice to make this clearer for my wife & I? It's beginning to make a little more sense but our main concerns are now about the Polaris unit. Does anyone have or use one of these and are they reliable?

Feel free to ask any other questions. This situation is very complicated (especially to us) but I've tried to simplify it the best I can.

Thanks in advance!

[eightyeightfan1]

You rent your water tank and furnace?

[RobertInOntario]

You rent your water tank and furnace?

We own the (very aging) furnace but rent the water tank. If we get a new furnace, we'd probably rent that too.

[ScrewySqrl]

Where are you? Using hot wter to het a house has been done for a long, long time (old fashioned radiators use hot water and steam), but are NOT usually efficient.

Where I am, a heat pump is the most efficient heating and cooling solution, all in one. Unless you're well to the north, I'd look into getting one of those.

[RobertInOntario]

Where are you? Using hot wter to het a house has been done for a long, long time (old fashioned radiators use hot water and steam), but are NOT usually efficient.

Where I am, a heat pump is the most efficient heating and cooling solution, all in one. Unless you're well to the north, I'd look into getting one of those.

Thanks! We're in Toronto, so winters can get pretty cold. This Polaris unit is a combo unit, which are supposedly becoming more popular -- i.e it wasn't until recently that you could use a water heater to heat your house AND your water. Here's a link re the Polaris: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.johnwoodwaterheaters.com/Downloads/PDF/NRGSS00308R_Spec_Sheet.pdf">http://www.johnwoodwaterheaters.com/Dow ... _Sheet.pdf</a><!-- m -->

Not sure if this sheds any light on it. It's supposed to work with an air handler system.

[Sumpter250]

Circulated hot water, baseboard heating ( copper pipe with aluminum fins to radiate the heat ). It's your heat, and hot water both. The boiler we had was not all that different from a standard hot water heater, and the system kept the house warm all winter. We also had the option of stoking up the fireplace.......we got heat, and as the fire burned down we could "toast" a few marshmallows.
It helped that the walls, and ceilings, were fully insulated.

[RobertInOntario]

Circulated hot water, baseboard heating ( copper pipe with aluminum fins to radiate the heat ). It's your heat, and hot water both. The boiler we had was not all that different from a standard hot water heater, and the system kept the house warm all winter. We also had the option of stoking up the fireplace.......we got heat, and as the fire burned down we could "toast" a few marshmallows.
It helped that the walls, and ceilings, were fully insulated.

Thanks! So you're using a combo unit, i.e. a water heater that also heats your house (in conjunction with an air handler)?

[Sumpter250]

" Thanks! So you're using a combo unit, i.e. a water heater that also heats your house (in conjunction with an air handler)? "

No Air Handler, it was convection heating. The only time we needed "air movement " was in the summer, and that was taken care of by opening the windows, and letting the ocean breeze blow through.

My parents sold the house years ago ( taxes were getting too high ), and it has been doubled ( at the least ) in size, not sure how the "extension" is heated.

[RobertInOntario]

" Thanks! So you're using a combo unit, i.e. a water heater that also heats your house (in conjunction with an air handler)? "

No Air Handler, it was convection heating. The only time we needed "air movement " was in the summer, and that was taken care of by opening the windows, and letting the ocean breeze blow through.

My parents sold the house years ago ( taxes were getting too high ), and it has been doubled ( at the least ) in size, not sure how the "extension" is heated.

Thanks... but you were, at least, using a combo unit / water tank to heat your house (Instead of a conventional furnace)?

This is what our contractor is advising and I understand it's very energy efficient & green. Almost ready to take the plunge with this!

[rrinker]

OK, take this with a grain of salt, because I'm probably prejudice towards systems I've either had direct experience with or at least know about.

Putting a water coil in a forced air system is going to be HORRIBLE. You'll get maybe warm air blowing out, certainly not the nice hot air of a direct hot air furnace.

Now, running hot water through baseboard heaters - that actually IS very efficient. In my area, the energy award winning house every year has a multi-zone hot water heat system, where the furnace heats water and pumps circulate it through the radiators. Multiple thermostats in different areas of the house control the pumps for those areas. My new house has 3 zones, the house I grew up in was just one zone for the whole place, but it was always warm. Back in the late 70's/early 80's when oil was so ridiculously expensive, a bunch of us neighbors all got together and installed wood stoves, and we'd go out together to cut and split wood to supply everyone. The kind of wood stoves we got had water coils in them, and tied in to the hot water heat system. The wood stove was not enough to make the radiators as hot as they got from the oil furnace, but they were constantly warm - the oil furnace almost NEVER turned on as long as we had a fire burning and it heated the entire house that way, not just the room where the stove was located.

I've visited Toronto a few times, seems ot be similar climate to here, with more wind and probably a bit colder in winter (I wasn't there in winter). In this area, heat pumps are HORRIBLE - it gets too cold to get decent heating and a backup heat source is almost always needed. I made the mistake of agreeing to buy a house where said backup was electric resistor grids in the air flow - with winter time electric bills over $600 (and the thermostat was set on like 65, not 70 something!) it's little wonder I quickly went broke. I can't imagine one hot water radiator in the air flow would be much better at generating heat, though it shouldn't be as costly.

There seems to be just too many parts exposed to the water in this Polaris system. It's bad enough on a traditional water heater when corrosion finally eats through the tank, but what about that fire tube coil in there? Also, this is vastly different from the sorts of things we have here. For example, in the house I grew up in, there's just one oil burning furnace, but there is a separate water coil in the main tank for heating the domestic hot water. That water you bathe in that comes out of the taps never mixes with the water that circulates in the heating system. We either have systems like that or like what I have in this house, which is a gas fired furnace that supplies hot water to the heating system and a separate gas fired water heater for domestic hot water. The new on demand hot water heaters for domestic hot water look pretty good, and should be more efficient - a traditional water heater is 40+ gallons and is kept hot at all times, meaning every once in a while it kicks on even though I am not using any hot water. The on demand tankless ones only heat water when you actually use it. I would look in to it but part of the appeal of this house is that the furnace and water heater were both no more than 2 years old so that's one worry I don't have as a new homeowner.

--Randy

[doctorwayne]

If you have hot water heating, with either standing rads or baseboard-type ones, there's no need for an air handler unless you also have ductwork for air conditioning, and in that case, it would be totally separate from the furnace.
Unless I've misunderstood the set-up, combining the hot water heater with the furnace sounds like a dumb set-up: surely there must be some way to separate the heating of water for the rads and that for household's hot water taps?

I'm surprised that a 21 year old hot water heating system would be anywhere near the end of its service life, as most are very robust, although perhaps not as efficient as newer models.

As for renting or buying, you should weigh the pros and cons of each. Most purchased systems have a warranty period, while I believe the rental ones also have the warranty but require that you purchase the maintenance package. While you shouldn't allow the systems to go without maintenance, make sure that you're not being sold more than is necessary for good operation.

Any heating contractor can do annual maintenance and most offer such services as "deals" in the Fall. However, you can often get an even better price on such work in the Summer, when furnace-related service calls are pretty slow.

As for the water heater, it's difficult for me to say: mine is electric and I own the heater, and service it myself.

While a heat pump can be very efficient, even in Toronto, chances are that it will be very expensive to install unless you are in the older suburbs with a large lot. Most in-town lots in Toronto have a high percentage of the lot occupied by the house, with the result that the in-ground piping will need to be installed vertically rather than horizontally - much more expensive.

Wayne

[RobertInOntario]

Thanks for your responses, Randy & Wayne. I just logged in now and saw them! I'll read & think about your replies & get back to you...

However, quick update to my situation -- on Friday, I just learned that Direct Energy (the service company we use) will NOT install these units in houses. They only install them in Condos and Townhouses! So it looks like this Polaris unit might not be an option after all.

[MountainMan]

You must do things a lot differently than we do in America.

If you "rent" your heater, the company you rent from is obligated to provide the replacement at no cost to you.

[TinGoat]

You must do things a lot differently than we do in America.

If you "rent" your heater, the company you rent from is obligated to provide the replacement at no cost to you.

Yes, if you rent and it breaks down you get a new one free.

If you rent and you want to change/upgrade you are going to have to pay extra.

I live in a Condo with "Fan Coils". Water is circulated through the building supplying Heat in the winter and Cooling in the summer.

Water is run through a radiator and a fan blows through it to circulate the heat or cooling through the air.

It is very efficient.

[MountainMan]

You must do things a lot differently than we do in America.

If you "rent" your heater, the company you rent from is obligated to provide the replacement at no cost to you.

Yes, if you rent and it breaks down you get a new one free.

If you rent and you want to change/upgrade you are going to have to pay extra.

I live in a Condo with "Fan Coils". Water is circulated through the building supplying Heat in the winter and Cooling in the summer.

Water is run through a radiator and a fan blows through it to circulate the heat or cooling through the air.

It is very efficient.

So...if it's "so efficient" why do feel it needs upgrading...at your expense?