brass and nickle silver

[nkp_174]

why do you say that brass track is a waste of money other than your opinion, as i have stated according to all the metalargy reports i have read brass and nickle brass ( nickle silver ) oxidise at almost the same rate and the common oxide to both is CuO, also all the reports state that the oxides of nickle are a semiconductor not a conductor . the proponents of nickle brass rail over brass rail not one has been able to back there clams with a lick of metallurgy evidents.

Jim,
I've taken way too many chemistry and chemical engineering classes in undergrad and grad school to consider your reports to be authoritative (as written). I do not doubt the facts that you have reported, but I do believe that there is more to the story than what you have found. I spend a very large percentage of my time reading scientific papers and you have not come anywhere close to the burden of proof that I am accustomed to seeing.

You did not state the oxidation rates of any brass alloys (including nickel silver). What metallurgical reports did you read? Do you have citations in the scientific literature?

So far you have started the contents of the alloys and what products were formed by oxidation. You did not discuss how the metallic bonds affected the properties of the alloys. Stainless steel has iron in it, yet it doesn't rust because of the addition of chromium. This is a classic example of how the sum is not the same as the parts. Also, while you have reported that they are semiconductors, you have not reported the electrical conductivity of any of the materials.

Michael

[pgandw]

a post in the wahl thread made me remember that i posted a researched ( as i couldn't find and hard facts in the controversy)thread in a brass rail versus nickle sliver in the old forum so here it is whit some updated info this is not to start a argument i hope just some facts. .

After this thread started I did a lot of research on the properties of both brass and nickel silver also known as German silver and come up with a ton of information so I tried to keep it as short as I could. But first the chemical composition of brass is copper and zinc the commonest alloy is 63% copper and 37% zinc nickel silver is copper zinc and nickel the common alloy is 65% copper 18% nickel and 17% zinc the conductivity of each base metal using silver as a rating of 100 copper comes in with a rating of 97.61 zinc at 29.57 nickel at 12.98 so it would stand to reason that nickel silver rail is not as good of a conductor as brass rail but we use such short runs of it that re stance is not factor.now as for the oxides the major component being copper in both brass and nickel silver the common black oxide we get on our track is called cupric oxide its conductive qualities I didn’t find a site that dealt with it(fore all the years of shuddering locos we all can guess on it), but did find that it is a toxic substance(new to me).nickel oxide is also black but being only 18% of the metal in the alloy that it will be found in smaller amounts (which is a good thing as it carries a cancer warning) as to the conductivity qualities if the base metal in of low conductivity of the oxide would stand to reason to be also lower. The zinc oxide is a whitish gray color is not toxic and harmless unless you ingest large amounts of it, but the fumes of zinc are deadly if breathed in confined spaces. The oxides from all three of these metals are used in the electronic industry from what I found mostly in the integrated circuit manufacturing. Also there I a myriad of other compounds that can be formed the such as sulfides which form in locations having sulfur compound fumes in the air .so from all I can find the only advantage to nickel silver track over brass is the appearance and that is why I only buy new track in nickel silver but use brass I have.

update information on this, the first solid state rectifiers were copper oxide, so the black copper oxide on our rails is a rectifier more or less

The problem with what you are saying is that the components of an alloy do not oxidize separately. The alloy has its own oxidation characteristics that may or may not be related to the characteristics of its component elements. An alloy's structure is a unique crystalline structure resulting from the bonding of the alloy elements. An alloy has the same composition throughout, unlike plated metals.

All brass alloys (brass is an alloy of copper and zinc) I have ever used oxidize very rapidly in humid climates. I know, I used to have polish brass daily on the ship I was assigned to. Polish the bell or the brass table, and the next morning it would be already be tarnishing. Polished brass also tarnishes fairly easily just from the oils in human fingers. The only long term fix I saw to brass oxidation was a clear lacquer coating - commonly used on military belt buckles and other ornamental brass (think door knobs and fixtures). Oxidation on brass rail will break down fairly easily by running trains frequently, which produces a polishing action. In HO, about 10 times around with a 10 car train with weighted cars and metal wheels twice a week would keep the oxidation at bay for me. Larger scales get better polishing action from running trains. This was in Northern Virginia with no air conditioning to dry things out in the summer (1960s).

Nickel is added to quite a few alloys to enhance corrosion (oxidation) resistance. Stainless steel and nickel silver are prime examples of the use of nickel to reduce oxidation. Nickel silver is considerably slower to oxidize than brass. But as you correctly state, nickel silver oxide is not much more of a conductor than graphite or other semi-conductors. It's just that steel (not stainless) and brass oxides are total non-conductors. Even polished nickel silver is not nearly the conductor brass is, and is even worse than steel. But at the distances the power travels through our rails, and given the cross section compared to typical copper wire, the extra resistance is not an issue. If you are running 5 amp loads through code 55 rail, you will probably need to put feeders in at closer intervals.

Nickel silver is the favorite material for rail because of its more realistic appearance, decent soldering qualities, and fewer problems from oxidation. Brass can be a satisfactory rail material in a reasonable environment, and when used frequently. But used occasionally in a humid or salt-laden climate, it's hell with keeping it clean enough for decent operation in the smaller scales. Some of my older locomotives have brass tender truck bolsters, side frames, and wheels. If one of these locomotives won't run well (smoothly at slow speed), it's invariably oxidation of the brass in the tender electrical pickup. It's lots of fun to clean that up.

And FWIW, the rail and driver tire materials do have a noticeable impact on traction. Nickel silver wheels on nickel silver rail - the most common combination these days - is actually the worst of the commonly used materials. Steel driver tires are the best, and are at their best on steel rail. Steel drivers and steel rail is seldom seen in model railroading because of modelers fear of rust - especially when stored. Custom locomotive builders used steel tires for the extra traction when their customers would allow it. Today, stainless steel alloys with reasonable machining qualities are used for driver tires in the very best locomotives. Some steel rail is still made - it's easier on the dies than nickel silver - but lead is added to the alloy to enhance soldering characteristics, and also prevents rust. The lead in the steel alloy has the disadvantage of taking away the silvery steel color, which has reduced its acceptance in the market place.

The above are all observed facts.

my experiences and research

Fred Wright
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Chief Engineer, Mechanic, Wiper, and Jack of all Trades for the
Picture Gorge & Western Railway - none more picturesque!
Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Company - Home of the Tall Cedars

[jim currie]

why do you say that brass track is a waste of money other than your opinion, as i have stated according to all the metalargy reports i have read brass and nickle brass ( nickle silver ) oxidise at almost the same rate and the common oxide to both is CuO, also all the reports state that the oxides of nickle are a semiconductor not a conductor . the proponents of nickle brass rail over brass rail not one has been able to back there clams with a lick of metallurgy evidents.

Jim,
I've taken way too many chemistry and chemical engineering classes in undergrad and grad school to consider your reports to be authoritative (as written). I do not doubt the facts that you have reported, but I do believe that there is more to the story than what you have found. I spend a very large percentage of my time reading scientific papers and you have not come anywhere close to the burden of proof that I am accustomed to seeing.

You did not state the oxidation rates of any brass alloys (including nickel silver). What metallurgical reports did you read? Do you have citations in the scientific literature?

So far you have started the contents of the alloys and what products were formed by oxidation. You did not discuss how the metallic bonds affected the properties of the alloys. Stainless steel has iron in it, yet it doesn't rust because of the addition of chromium. This is a classic example of how the sum is not the same as the parts. Also, while you have reported that they are semiconductors, you have not reported the electrical conductivity of any of the materials.

Michael

i have over 30 pages of info i have looked up on the web will try to condense them down to a reasonable size of post to back up my findings .

[pgandw]

i have over 30 pages of info i have looked up on the web will try to condense them down to a reasonable size of post to back up my findings .

While you are doing so, please learn a little about alloys. Representing the characteristics of an alloy, which nickel silver is, by its component elements is incorrect, to put it nicely. Confusing an alloy with its component elements will cause you to fail chemistry and engineering classes. Insisting everybody else is wrong, and only you are correctly interpreting the research is not a great way to make friends and influence enemies.

Nickel silver was engineered by Germans in a contest to imitate an imported Chinese metal. Nickel silver, as the name implies, is an ideal substrate for silver plating, and is also used without plating in inexpensive cutlery because of its resistance to visible tarnish (oxidation) to its silver color despite immersion in dishwasher solutions and temperatures.

And depending on where you live and the environment of your train room, oxidation and the yellow color were the bane of brass rail track. Unfortunately, the rate of oxidation of brass is very dependent on the specifics of the environment so experiences vary widely with brass rail. Some can use brass rail quite successfully; other will have nothing but continuous cleaning chores with brass rail.

Fred Wright

[Brakie]

Fred wrote:And depending on where you live and the environment of your train room, oxidation and the yellow color were the bane of brass rail track. Unfortunately, the rate of oxidation of brass is very dependent on the specifics of the environment so experiences vary widely with brass rail. Some can use brass rail quite successfully; other will have nothing but continuous cleaning chores with brass rail.
----------------------------------------------------------------
That explains a lot...The old Columbus model railroad club was located in the basement of a A&P store had no problems even though 'there was a water leak by the "Portsmouth" Union Station area after a hard rain....The Marion club still has brass track with zero problems..I know 2 guys that still uses brass track with no problems...As I mention I used it for 3 years on a ISL with no problems.

I have always wonder how the hoards used brass track years ago with great success.

So,I suppose the "evils" of brass track depends on its environment and to a degree the mindset planted by the "experts" in books and infomercial magazine articles..

[nkp_174]

infomercial magazine articles..

[nachoman]

There is really no need to get into chemistry specifics here - because we have plenty of experimental evidence from our own personal experiences.

My experience with brass track was from back in the days in which I ran locomotives with pancake motors and 4-wheel pickup. Some of my performance problems were obviously related to the locomotive and not the track, but it did seem like I had to run a bright boy over the rails before every time I wanted to run a train. I still have a few steamers with brass driver tires, and they do require more frequent cleaning than those with nickle silver tires.

If brass rail was still available, I would still choose nickle silver because of appearance alone. For me to sacrifice appearace, brass would have to perform significantly better (it doesn't) or it would have to be significantly cheaper (it's not).

[jim currie]

i have over 30 pages of info i have looked up on the web will try to condense them down to a reasonable size of post to back up my findings .

While you are doing so, please learn a little about alloys. Representing the characteristics of an alloy, which nickel silver is, by its component elements is incorrect, to put it nicely. Confusing an alloy with its component elements will cause you to fail chemistry and engineering classes. Insisting everybody else is wrong, and only you are correctly interpreting the research is not a great way to make friends and influence enemies.

Nickel silver was engineered by Germans in a contest to imitate an imported Chinese metal. Nickel silver, as the name implies, is an ideal substrate for silver plating, and is also used without plating in inexpensive cutlery because of its resistance to visible tarnish (oxidation) to its silver color despite immersion in dishwasher solutions and temperatures.

And depending on where you live and the environment of your train room, oxidation and the yellow color were the bane of brass rail track. Unfortunately, the rate of oxidation of brass is very dependent on the specifics of the environment so experiences vary widely with brass rail. Some can use brass rail quite successfully; other will have nothing but continuous cleaning chores with brass rail.

Fred Wright

•Chemical Vs. Physical Change







A Closer Look: Chemical Vs. Physical Change

Physical change: Although some extensive properties (like shape, phase, etc.) of the material change, the material itself is the same before and after the change. The change can be “undone.”



Ice melting: an example of physical change.




Chemical change: The substances present at the beginning of the change are not present at the end; new substances are formed. The change cannot be “undone.”



A nail rusting: an example of chemical change.




Mass conservation: Mass is neither created nor destroyed.

What are the macroscopic and microscopic differences between physical and chemical changes?



Macroscopic Definition Microscopic Definition
Physical Change The matter is the same.
The original matter can be recovered. The particles of the substance are rearranged.
Chemical Change The matter is different.
The old matter is no longer present. The original matter cannot be recovered.
The particles of the substance are broken apart, and the atoms are rearranged into new particles, forming a new substance.



Is the distinction always “clear-cut”?

There are many cases where the distinctions between physical changes and chemical changes are unclear. For example:

The dissolution of salt in water: This seems like a physical change because we know we can recover the salt from the water. However, if we look at the microscopic level, we see that the two types of atoms in salt, sodium and chlorine, separate from one another. In this example, we don’t have a new substance, therefore this salt in solution doesn’t fit the microscopic definition of a chemical change; but we also don’t have the substance in its original form — a stack of alternating sodium and chlorine atoms. Does this mean the change is half chemical and half physical? Though it has aspects of a chemical change, scientists would still classify the dissolution of salt as a physical change.

The creation of a metal alloy: If we melt two types of metal together, we create an alloy metal that has different properties than either of its components (e.g., heat conductivity, electrical conductivity, density, etc.). This might lead us to think that we’ve witnessed a chemical change. In fact, a new particle is not created by melting two metals together. This indicates they did not undergo a chemical reaction. Brass, for example, is about 60% copper and 40% zinc, and is composed of individual copper and zinc atoms (i.e., there is no “smallest unit” that is still brass). There is no such thing as a brass molecule.











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as far as making friends i don't give a hoot i just want some solid evidence to substantiate the claims of NS rail

[Ralph]

as far as making friends i don't give a hoot i just want some solid evidence to substantiate the claims of NS rail

I'm impressed by all of the effort involved in discussing the chemical analysis of model railroad track and oxidation! I should confess that I would have failed 11th grade chemistry if it weren't for the generous support and patience of my lab partner. :oops:

It seems that focusing on the chemical properties of the rail and its oxidation might not convince some of us about the suitability of brass as much as anecdotal evidence from modelers who have had success with brass rail. I had an experience similar to Nachoman's with my pancake motors and brass rail. Things stalled constantly and I devoted almost as much time to cleaning track as I did running trains. I assumed, as I imagine most of us have, that brass was not a good choice for model railroad rail. It seems to be the conventional knowledge.

To hear accounts of model railroads running smoothly and successfully on brass rail intrigues me, however, whether it has to do with painting the rail sides, or having the right environment, etc. I will not discount those reports even though my experience with brass was abysmal. Instead I'll open my mind to the possibility that given certain conditions and using modern locomotives brass can be an option...and I won't even feel the need to argue about it!
Now I'll yield the floor to you learned gentlemen who know the difference between a compound and an element and enjoy debating such information.
Ralph

[sgtcarl1]

Haven't we had these discussions, before? You choose, (prefer,) what works best for you. There is no right or wrong in using what you have, or can afford to purchase. I's ultimately your chioce.

ENUFF, already!!! :hey:

[nkp_174]

The dissolution of salt in water: This seems like a physical change because we know we can recover the salt from the water. However, if we look at the microscopic level, we see that the two types of atoms in salt, sodium and chlorine, separate from one another. In this example, we don’t have a new substance, therefore this salt in solution doesn’t fit the microscopic definition of a chemical change; but we also don’t have the substance in its original form — a stack of alternating sodium and chlorine atoms. Does this mean the change is half chemical and half physical? Though it has aspects of a chemical change, scientists would still classify the dissolution of salt as a physical change.

The creation of a metal alloy: If we melt two types of metal together, we create an alloy metal that has different properties than either of its components (e.g., heat conductivity, electrical conductivity, density, etc.). This might lead us to think that we’ve witnessed a chemical change. In fact, a new particle is not created by melting two metals together. This indicates they did not undergo a chemical reaction. Brass, for example, is about 60% copper and 40% zinc, and is composed of individual copper and zinc atoms (i.e., there is no “smallest unit” that is still brass). There is no such thing as a brass molecule.


as far as making friends i don't give a hoot i just want some solid evidence to substantiate the claims of NS rail

Metals form metallic bonds. Lerner.org may not discuss it, but that is because it is a simplification intended for the layman with no knowledge of the field. If you want to learn chemistry, go to your local library and take out a copy of Brown, Bursten, & LeMay which is a common college text. A chemical reaction is one in which chemical bonds are formed or destroyed...the creation of an alloy is a chemical reaction. You have, in several posts, failed to convey any understanding of this concept...only resistance to it.

We have had many personal testimonies in this thread as to the reason why most of us prefer nickel silver. Eye witness testimony trumps theory in courts...especially when the theory is incomplete and not presented by an expert witness. A proper experiment would involve ovals of track and climate controls...it would help to reveal the roles played by some of the variables which affect the corrosion of the track. If different alloys are used in brass and nickel silver rail, then additional test tracks would be needed. This wouldn't be a fun or short experiment.

Increasing the Nickel raises the resistance to corrosion.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass74.htm#Corrosion%20Resistance%20Data">http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass7 ... nce%20Data</a><!-- m -->

Let's not forget that in large scale, brass track is quite common. The wider rails decrease the risk of corrosion interfering with the electrical pickup...and the greater weight probably makes it more effective at polishing the rail.

On a related note, I wonder if nickel silver first came to prominence with eating utensils for its appearance, its corrosion resistance, or both.

Jim, you are a fine model railroader whom is a pleasure to have on the forum. I don't think that you have made any enemies in this thread...just a friendly disagreement.

Michael

[Brakie]

Ralph,
Food for thought..
1.Brass track needs more cleaning then NS..
Perhaps
But,
Why all the topics on cleaning track if NS track stays cleaner?

Why is there a need to use chemicals(Gleam,90% Alcohol WD40 etc) to keep it clean longer?

:?: :?: :?: :?:

[nachoman]

Ralph,
Food for thought..
1.Brass track needs more cleaning then NS..
Perhaps
But,
Why all the topics on cleaning track if NS track stays cleaner?

Why is there a need to use chemicals(Gleam,90% Alcohol WD40 etc) to keep it clean longer?

:?: :?: :?: :?:

I suspect a lot of "drity track" problems arent from oxidation, but from 1) dust and lint [if my furniture gets dusty in a week, shouldn't my rails shoud accumulate the same dust?]; 2) oil and grease from locomotives; 3) plastic particles wearing off of plastic wheelsets.

One is going to have to clean rails regardless, whether brass or NS.

[Brakie]

Ralph,
Food for thought..
1.Brass track needs more cleaning then NS..
Perhaps
But,
Why all the topics on cleaning track if NS track stays cleaner?

Why is there a need to use chemicals(Gleam,90% Alcohol WD40 etc) to keep it clean longer?

:?: :?: :?: :?:

I suspect a lot of "drity track" problems arent from oxidation, but from 1) dust and lint [if my furniture gets dusty in a week, shouldn't my rails should accumulate the same dust?]; 2) oil and grease from locomotives; 3) plastic particles wearing off of plastic wheelsets.

One is going to have to clean rails regardless, whether brass or NS.

Kevin,I also suspect many are overly concern about keeping their track clean.

As you may recall the Bucyrus club is located at the fair grounds in a block building.It can be 3-6 weeks before somebody decides to run a train during our "off" months(no open houses)..They simply put their train on the layout and go without cleaning track.I ran a short train 3 weeks ago and didn't clean track and no problems...

Now according to the worriers our trains should run jerkily because of "dirty" track but,they don't.

Even during the 8 days of the county fair the track gets a lick and promise with 91% alcohol once a day and no problems.

[nkp_174]

Brakie,
I can recall a few long threads about this. There are two schools of thought it seems: cleaning is essential...and cleaning isn't. I fall into the second camp. I believe that the residue left from track cleaning (and the oils) cause the track to get dirty again rather quickly. I do agree with Kevin that other factors affect it as well. With my old HO layout, the first improvement I made was to eliminate the brass track. That decreased my trouble with keeping it clean, but I still added oil and such. Eventually, I stopped cleaning at all and found that my rail generally stayed clean enough with periodic running...and I believe that ritual cleaning usually causes more trouble than it is worth (at least in my circumstance). I still run that layout a few times per year...and never have a problem with dirty track...except when a cat pukes on it

I suspect that there are other environmental factors which affect the need (or lack there of) for cleaning.