Okay - I'm hung up! Been testing out the track configuration this afternoon and already see two possible changes to the original plan and of course can't make up my mind which way to go. Here is an image that shows the variations I have in mind[attachment=10905]I modified the plan to include a simulated connection to the "main line" and have an obvious entrance to the transload track with a drive leading to it, an office and truck scale.

The track is currently laid out as shown in Version 1, but I haven't tried out a test operating session thus far, since I can't decide if I want to make one of these possible changes:

Version 2: Separate spurs to industries C and D.

Version 3: Two long spurs (like an extended Palmetto Spur) with two industries on each spur - B, C and D, E. - OR - Just two large structures on each track.

I'm sort of wondering to myself if I'd be trying to include too many industries on a spur this length with Version 3 and also if I'd have to compress some of the structures too much. Not to mention that I still haven't decided on exactly which of my proposed industries to include!

Some of the proposed industries would be: Storage/Distribution Warehouse, Candy Plant or Bakery, Cooking Oils Distributor, Soft Drink Bottler, Meat or Produce Distributor, Beverage Distributor and of course the Transload Facility that would handle lumber and feed and/or fertilizer for off-line customers.

Your thoughts?

Ed,My vote goes to Version 2...I always did like one industry per siding since every industry I switched was on its private siding-PRR track stopped at the derail and beyond that was owned and maintain by the industry-the same applied for the C&O under Chessie..There was 2 industries embargoed on C&O's Big Sandy Sub due to their unsafe track..The switches was removed.

My vote goes for plan 2 or 3

Brakie Wrote:Ed,My vote goes to Version 2...

Okie-Dokie - I agree. Does look a bit more like your "typical" modern industrial spur and allows for some potentially nice shoebox structures. It also helped when I did what I should have done in the first place - decide on what industries to include! And I did a little test run on what was shown as Version 1 in the previous posting and wasn't too thrilled with it. So here's what I'm going with:[attachment=10907]May have to make some very slight adjustments to the length of the three spurs by the shoebox structures, allowing for the number of possible car spots and maintaining my 8 foot switching lead/staging track, but otherwise this should work just fine as shown. With all the food related industries I guess a good name for this would be "The Food Spur".

Industries will be:
Soft Drink Bottler: Corn Syrup Tanks (2 spots with room for 1 off spot)
Food Products Warehouse: Box Cars - Reefers (4 spots)
Cooking Oils Distributor: General Service Tanks (2 spots with room for 1 off spot)
Bakery (or maybe a Candy Plant): Airslide Hoppers (2 spots with room for 1 off spot)
Transload Facility: Covered Hoppers (feed/fertilizer) - Bulkhead Flats (lumber/wallboard) - Box Cars (lumber/plywood/beer/miscellaneous) - Other odds and ends that might show up now and then such as a Chain Flat of machinery or whatever. (4 or 5 possible spots)

All the industries and structures are based on prototypes that I've found.

Time to make the changes to the track and build this thing! Once I get the track re-laid and some structure mockups, I'll post some photos or maybe start a new thread. Just hope that my efforts come remotely close to what some of the other folks on here have accomplished.

BTW Larry - looking forward to seeing the track plan you've worked out for Slate Creek. Feel free to "borrow" any ideas from my ramblings and numerous track plans.

Well , it's a very interesting discussion about the project ....think I'll have to read it over again , especially Larry's stuff , to try to figure out what real operations are all about .

Terry

Hey Ed,

I agree, it looks great and VERY prototypical in my humble opinion... I think you can bank on this one and be assured that it will be really fun and realistic to opperate.

It's time to build! I haad a head start but the way I am going you can easily catch up...can't wait to see you put as much detail into the layout as you have into your plan!

Great work and always helpful!

After re-laying the track this is how it looks at this point; and yes, I made a few changes![attachment=10931]Managed to eliminate the transload track (and along with it lumber and building product shipments), but do have industries on both sides of the switching lead, which is something that I've been experimenting with off and on.

Since the layout is strictly freelance, I'm free to pick and chose various prototype industries from around the country to use on the layout and having located two perfect candidates for front edge industries, I decided to make these changes and see how it works out. As I've mentioned previously, all the industries are based on actual prototypes.

Industry A is either a bakery or confections plant (haven't made up my mind on that) and receives Airslide hoppers of either flour or sugar, depending on what I pick for this one.
Industry B is based on the Trinidad-Benham facility in Chino, CA and receives gravity discharge covered hoppers of beans, rice, popcorn for processing and packaging.
Industry C is based on the Family & Son food products distributor in Miami, FL, although will be reversed from the prototype structure. They receive general service tank cars of cooking oils, box cars of food products and reefers of meat.
Industry D is a beverage distributor (think beer!) and will be a generic facility based on a couple of prototypes I'm familiar with. They receive 50ft and 60ft insulated box cars.
Industry E is a soft drink bottler that receives tank cars of corn syrup and is based on the G&J Bottling plant, nearby in Lexington, KY.

Note that the prototypes for Industries B and E both have rail spurs that are far enough away from the main structure to allow easy viewing of the cars on spot and switching. I need only model enough of the structures to give me that "concrete canyon" effect. In fact, the Trinidad-Benham facility could actually omit the structure completely, but then it would look like a team or transload track so I will include just enough of a structure to show that something is there.

My conductor/engineer trainee is coming over tonight for a formal operating session so we'll see how things work out with two of us working it. Having tested it out a couple of times myself; so far I'm fairly well pleased, with a "typical" operating session taking over an hour. But I do want to test it out a bit more before I commit myself to the actual construction.

BTW Callum... Where ya' been??

Edo far I'm fairly well pleased, with a "typical" operating session taking over an hour.
-------------------------------------------------
Using my standard 15:1 that works out to over 4 hours scale time!

Why 15:1?

I use my wristwatch and its easier for me to use 15 minutes as a scale hour..

Hi Ed,

The latest plan looks great with loads of operational interest.

I notice on the plan you have shown one spot on industry A and two spots on Industry B where there appears to be a faciltity for hopper cars to be unloaded by gravity,
presumably thru openings in the middle of the track and down into some sort of underground storage bunker?

Do you have any pics or examples of this type of hopper unloading facility? What kind of commodities, other than grain, are delivered by this method?

I'm interested in including something similar in my next project.

Thanks,

Mal

Ed, I'm glad that you kept this tread going. It's one of my favorite threads on ANY forum. Your expertise is invaluable. I'm going to be sad when the layout gets built because of your insight and experience. I can't wait to see how the op session goes.

alcanman Wrote:I notice on the plan you have shown one spot on industry A and two spots on Industry B where there appears to be a faciltity for hopper cars to be unloaded by gravity, presumably thru openings in the middle of the track and down into some sort of underground storage bunker?

Do you have any pics or examples of this type of hopper unloading facility? What kind of commodities, other than grain, are delivered by this method?

Mal;

Industry A (bakery or small candy plant) has a small shed over the track at the point where the Airslide hoppers are unloaded. You'd spot one in the shed with another behind it and when one is unloaded, it would be moved toward the switch by plant personnel or pulled by the train crew and the next one moved into the shed. Looking at this web page about a bakery in Plover, WI, http://brucerail001.webng.com/w091021bak...90921.html should give you a good idea of what I'm talking about. I plan on kit-bashing the Walther's Magic Pan bakery for this structure and will use the covered shed from a Walther's ADM elevator over the track. It would work for either of the possible industries. A couple of prototype bakeries that I've located here and there, actually have no shed over the unloading point. Probably not necessary since they appear to be unloading pressure differential covered hoppers that would have a hose connected to the car.

As for Industry A well here's a Bing Aerial view of the facility that this is based on: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=pp1rq65...orm=LMLTCC. You can see why I like this prototype for use on the front edge of the layout, as the track is located so far from the structure. Rotating the view you can see what appears to be two unloading spots where the beans, rice, popcorn would be unloaded from the cars and I assume an underground conveyor takes the commodity to the main structure. On the east end of the view you can also see what appears to be an above ground conveyor at that point. Might make a nice detail to include. Not sure what those two ramps you can see are used for unless they sometimes get box cars of the commodity in bags and unload them with forklifts.

As shown on the plan, I will model just enough of a structure to show that there is in fact an industry there and add to that "concrete canyon" effect. I will probably model the covered hopper unloading pits by cutting out a few ties between the rails, then making a simple grating from some plastic shapes and screen wire or something similar and placing it in those two locations, so it will be obvious where the cars spot. There is room enough on the track to spot a couple more cars waiting to be unloaded and I will probably include a couple of dummy capstan type car movers with cables by the track. Here's a web page showing different types of car movers so you'll know what I'm talking about: http://www.saferack.com/capstans-and-railcar-movers.cfm.

Similar type facilities where covered hoppers/open hoppers are unloaded can be found all over the country. At the distilleries here in Frankfort, there was simply a metal grating between the rails covering a pit where the corn, rye, and malt were unloaded, then conveyors lifted the grain to storage bins. When a car was unloaded, they used an electric car puller to move the empty down the track and position another load over the pit. Same thing for the coal unloading by the power house. We simply spotted the hopper over the grating, then plant personnel opened the hoppers and let the coal fall in to the pit. Didn't take them long to unload a car and again they'd use the car puller to move the empty and spot another load.

Grain, feed, fertilizers, salt, and similar commodities, along with coal, gravel, sand in open hoppers, would be unloaded in this manner. You can of course unload these type cars on that good old team track just by placing an auger conveyor and pan under the car and using the conveyor to load a waiting truck. That was what I had planned to do if I included the transload track on the layout.

Although not mentioned, Industry E (the soft drink bottler) can be seen in this Bing View and again shows why I selected it for a foreground industry http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qb7t9m7...orm=LMLTCC. Not only is the track some distance from the main structure it's what I'd call a model railroad size industry, as they only spot two cars at a time, although the short spur will hold four corn syrup tanks. R J Corman usually switches this plant twice a day.

Hope this helps some. Feel free to ask about anything and I'll try and help.

Mike Kieran Wrote:Ed, I'm glad that you kept this tread going. It's one of my favorite threads on ANY forum. Your expertise is invaluable. I'm going to be sad when the layout gets built because of your insight and experience. I can't wait to see how the op session goes.

Appreciate that Mike. I really should close this thread until such time as I finally make up my mind and actually start building the layout, but am always more than happy to share my experience/knowledge/ideas with anyone that's interested.

As for the operating session - it worked out really well and I was a bit surprised in that it actually took longer with two of us operating it. Guess it was due to my sidekick having to spend a bit more time figuring his moves then what I would, but it was fun. However, next time, I'm going to be conductor - I get bored standing there waiting to make the next move - more fun to work the ground!

We first took about 15-20 minutes to go over the new track arrangement and where the car spot locations were - since someone hasn't gotten around to working on the new structure mockups. I had already made up a switch list and had the train blocked out on the spur with one car to place/pull at Industries A, B, D, and E and two for Industry C. All told, it took about an hour and a half to complete the operating session and everything seems to be working out well. We really didn't do any "time killing" other than just operating at prototype speeds, waiting a few seconds between moves and then of course the time involved when the conductor had to stop and think things out: "Let's see, I need to pull that car, spot this one behind that one, and re-spot these two". That sort of thing. Just as on the prototype, you can sure spend a lot of time just working one industry!

For now, I don't see anything that needs to be changed, but will do a few more test sessions to see how I like it. I just hope I can get the look that I want for the layout and can keep myself from that urge to try and come up with something else! Seems to always be that thought in the back of the mind that there is something that I haven't thought of or seen that might be just a bit more interesting! Just too darn many good ideas and prototypes to chose from! Not to mention the outstanding modeling you see on Big Blue.

There is of course the big danger that I've encountered so many times in the past and that is once you can actually operate the layout, I don't seem to get anything else done. I come downstairs with the intention of working on a structure or something and the next thing I know, I'm just operating the layout and that structure is still just a pile of parts or sheets of styrene!

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the comprehensive and most informative reply. Exactly what I was looking for, and also a greater insight into operations on your layout.

L&N Industrial Rail Spur continues to inspire, without even seeing a single pic! Looks like Palmetto Spur's days may be numbered, with so much inspiration
on the Big Blue, it may not be too long before a new layout is planned.

I hope you manage to build your layout.

regards,

Mal

alcanman Wrote:Hi Ed,

Thanks for the comprehensive and most informative reply. Exactly what I was looking for, and also a greater insight into operations on your layout.

Very happy that I was able to perhaps give you some ideas or fill in some blanks. I'll have to look through my collection of "layout planning idea" images and see if I have something that might be of interest to you. I've posted various photos of different things on both this thread and others and always wonder if it inspires any one to model such and such.

alcanman Wrote:L&N Industrial Rail Spur continues to inspire, without even seeing a single pic! Looks like Palmetto Spur's days may be numbered, with so much inspiration on the Big Blue, it may not be too long before a new layout is planned.

I hope you manage to build your layout.

regards,

Mal

I'd sure hate to see you completely abandon your version of the Palmetto Spur! You took a simple track plan and improved on it (especially by making the staging/switching lead a part of the layout) and it has been an inspiration to myself and many others. Clearly demonstrates that you don't need a basement size empire to have an outstanding layout. Perhaps you could find a way to preserve it and yet still build something else. But I certainly understand how all the inspiration and ideas can want you make a change. Sometimes I feel like there is TOO MUCH inspiration out there and of course you can't model or include everything you'd like to on a layout.

As for me, it's become my number one goal to actually start building a layout rather than just testing out track plans. Even the wife is on my case constantly to "do something with that mess!" I'm eager to start building structures and incorporate some of my own ideas. Just need to get myself started. As for photos, I haven't taken many as I feel like there is really nothing to see at this point, but will try and take a few once I get some new structure mockups thrown together to more clearly show what I hope to accomplish. I tend to take "spells" where I'll get really involved with the layout and then hit slumps and do nothing other than just have a little operating session with myself. But must admit, that in itself is fun and relaxing.

Ed,This has to be one of the most thought provoking ISL topics I ever had the pleasure to read and participate in.

I know my Slate Creek plan was improved several times because of this discussion.

Its getting close to a Slate Creek revisited but,I think I will do the revisit topic as a update leading into a ISL build topic..There's three loose ends I need to do first and that is build the three rail served industries.

I favor having the industries built so I can fit the track to the structure.This saves a lot of oops! which leads to rework and a waste of time.