09-11-2009, 12:38 PM
[/quote]
I can see why you are struggling with coming up with a design. "Well outside the box", "not very conventional" and "Inspiration ? Doc Brown, Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" all sounds very fancy, but aren't exactly very clear goals for designing a model railroad layout.
That is because my vision is going to likely alienate many ,modelers, who seem pretty conventional in thinking and practice. I intend my layout to be my own vision, and for it to serve me as a forum for trying new techniques and new concepts that can be blended into the basic foundation established. If you are familiar with the four I mentioned, you have the major portion of the answer already. I'm trying to get some assistance without starting a "layout war".
If you close your eyes and try to visualize a finished layout with running trains - try to describe what a train running session would look like:
Will there just be one person running trains at any time, or will there sometimes be two or more persons running ?
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I will be the solo operator.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will there typically be people watching the train or trains run ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
No
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What do you mean by "short trains"?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Generally, about 5-6 cars, due to grade, curves and heavy loads. I am forming a circus train that will be the probable exception.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will you be running freight trains only, passenger trains only, both or mixed trains (freight and passenger in the same train) ?
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Both dedicated freight and passenger. Freight several times per day, passenger once daily. Not confirmed yet, but no mixed.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will your favorite activity be watch your train move slowly through a dramatic looking mountain scene, or will your favorite activity be switching inbound and outbound cars at the mine, factory and town ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
A mix of watching and the switching necessary to service the town and industry.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will there at any one time just be one train on the visible part of your layout, or will you need to be able to have two (or more) trains meet or pass each other somewhere on the layout ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
There will be a passing siding or two. The need for freight to move both in and out, and the "virtual length" of the line will prevent dedicated usage in either direction. However, geography will prevent a double-tracked mainline. I not envision passing as a primary objective, however.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Where will your train or trains typically come from and go to ?
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************8**********
From the Denver area, at an off-layout juncture with the real railroads, and either back to there or north towards Wyoming. However, the mountain trackage is proprietary, so outside- line rolling stock will be limited to what is necessary for expediency sake or too much trouble to transfer.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something e.g. from a mine down to an on-layout washer/crusher/smelter or some such thing or haul miners and supplies from the town to the mine site ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
No. Transport of raw materials to the mine is by an alternate means other than rail which establish a visual "connection" to a large but mostly unseen part of the operation. I plan on an aerial tramway which will move raw material into the the industry. My goal is to power this tramway. Rail supplies the town, and hauls certain essential supplies to the industry, and then hauls heavy finished product to the buyers and moves people to and from the outside world. Transport of miners by work train from town, and to and from mine by aerial tram. Perhaps a continuing spur to allow occasional heavy equipment to be shipped onwards to the mine...
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
- Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something from a mine or an industry down to an interchange track or yard, where some other railroad will "pick up the cars later", i.e. between running sessions (or from an interchange track or yard to on layout destinations) ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I plan for the town to be the interchange between the real world and the restricted trackage to the industrial site. I have not yet decided if the products will be hauled to town to be picked up by heavier engines, or picked up on site. This in part is based on a means of turning engines, which will be possible in town but unlikely at the industrial site. Switch engines can move the heavies into town for the link-up, if need be. I have two of those on my roster.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Are you thinking about having your trains come from "somewhere else" (ie hidden staging/off-layout), enter the area modeled on your layout, drop off inbound loaded cars or empty cars to be loaded, pick up outbound loaded cars or emptied cars and depart for "somewhere else" ?
Exactly. Inbound trains will appear mostly from the Denver interchange via hidden staging, but laden freights and passenger service will depart in either direction. If I elect to use Denver as the interchange, then all departing trains would just go there to to connect to everywhere. My curerent plan calls for the tracks to enter down from "downhill and continue onward into the mountains as the "exit" for through traffic.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
- Will you need/want to sort inbound RR cars into the right order to be dropped off at modeled industries on your layout, or sort outbound cars before your train drop them off at an interchange track or head out of your modeled area ?
******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************8**
I envison a small yard in town and at the industry, possibly just a holding spur. The town yard serves to make up the local trains, provide serving needs and to receive freight cars dropped off for the town itself - food, supplies, furniture, whatever. The industry yard is solely to hold cars awaiting unloading and those being loaded and made up outbound. These will not stop in town on the way out but go through.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What kind of inbound and outbound loads are you visualizing ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Inbound: all of the needs of a small town, food, clothing, furniture, lumber or other building supplies, etc. Through to industry: formed metal products such as sheet metal, spools of wire, machinery items, and industrial liquids such as acids. Passenger consists.
Outbound: Empty freight cars from the town. Heavy fabricated loads from the industry. Passenger consist.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What do you mean "inspired by Emmet Brown (the character Doc Brown from "Back to the Future" ?), Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" and what do you mean by "mountain grades" ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
The first part is the controversial part, and to avoid starting a war , or giving away my proprietary ideas, that will have wait. No offense intended.
Grades: up to 4% if the locos will handle it. I plan to test that to be absolutely certain before establishing the final ruling grade.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
The only one of those four names you list that bring any railroad specific thoughts to mind outright is Brunel - and his name reminds me of railroading in southwestern England in the mid 1800s - viaducts crossing relatively gentle river valleys and tunnels running through what I would call relatively small hills.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Brunel also built The Great Eastern "Outside the box and unconventional"
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What kind of mountain landscapes are you visualizing ? Are you imagining:
- New England style mountains covered in leafy trees in blazing fall colors ?
- Narrow Appalachian style coal mining valleys ?
- Mountain sides with pale green/yellowing meadows on the rain shade side ?
- Trains running along ledges blasted out of sheer cliff sides ?
- Trains coming out of one tunnel to cross a river on a high bridge across a chasm and then ducking into a new tunnel ?
- Some other type of mountain scenes (if so - what style) ?
Modeled after the Wind River Range.![[Image: windriver.jpg]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr19/MountainMan01/Modeling%20References/windriver.jpg)
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Or is your vision so totally different from what my questions above are trying to pin down that the questions are irrelevant ? If so - try to describe in your own words what you imagine your trains will look like, how they will run and so on and so forth.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Your question are completely relevant.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I am sure there will be more questions later on, but these should be a start in letting you get a start on firming up your vision of what you want your layout to look like and run like.
Grin,
Stein[/quote]
Thank you for the questions. I appreciate your interest.
I can see why you are struggling with coming up with a design. "Well outside the box", "not very conventional" and "Inspiration ? Doc Brown, Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" all sounds very fancy, but aren't exactly very clear goals for designing a model railroad layout.
That is because my vision is going to likely alienate many ,modelers, who seem pretty conventional in thinking and practice. I intend my layout to be my own vision, and for it to serve me as a forum for trying new techniques and new concepts that can be blended into the basic foundation established. If you are familiar with the four I mentioned, you have the major portion of the answer already. I'm trying to get some assistance without starting a "layout war".
If you close your eyes and try to visualize a finished layout with running trains - try to describe what a train running session would look like:
Will there just be one person running trains at any time, or will there sometimes be two or more persons running ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I will be the solo operator.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will there typically be people watching the train or trains run ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
No
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What do you mean by "short trains"?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Generally, about 5-6 cars, due to grade, curves and heavy loads. I am forming a circus train that will be the probable exception.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will you be running freight trains only, passenger trains only, both or mixed trains (freight and passenger in the same train) ?
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Both dedicated freight and passenger. Freight several times per day, passenger once daily. Not confirmed yet, but no mixed.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will your favorite activity be watch your train move slowly through a dramatic looking mountain scene, or will your favorite activity be switching inbound and outbound cars at the mine, factory and town ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
A mix of watching and the switching necessary to service the town and industry.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will there at any one time just be one train on the visible part of your layout, or will you need to be able to have two (or more) trains meet or pass each other somewhere on the layout ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
There will be a passing siding or two. The need for freight to move both in and out, and the "virtual length" of the line will prevent dedicated usage in either direction. However, geography will prevent a double-tracked mainline. I not envision passing as a primary objective, however.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Where will your train or trains typically come from and go to ?
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************8**********
From the Denver area, at an off-layout juncture with the real railroads, and either back to there or north towards Wyoming. However, the mountain trackage is proprietary, so outside- line rolling stock will be limited to what is necessary for expediency sake or too much trouble to transfer.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something e.g. from a mine down to an on-layout washer/crusher/smelter or some such thing or haul miners and supplies from the town to the mine site ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
No. Transport of raw materials to the mine is by an alternate means other than rail which establish a visual "connection" to a large but mostly unseen part of the operation. I plan on an aerial tramway which will move raw material into the the industry. My goal is to power this tramway. Rail supplies the town, and hauls certain essential supplies to the industry, and then hauls heavy finished product to the buyers and moves people to and from the outside world. Transport of miners by work train from town, and to and from mine by aerial tram. Perhaps a continuing spur to allow occasional heavy equipment to be shipped onwards to the mine...
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
- Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something from a mine or an industry down to an interchange track or yard, where some other railroad will "pick up the cars later", i.e. between running sessions (or from an interchange track or yard to on layout destinations) ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I plan for the town to be the interchange between the real world and the restricted trackage to the industrial site. I have not yet decided if the products will be hauled to town to be picked up by heavier engines, or picked up on site. This in part is based on a means of turning engines, which will be possible in town but unlikely at the industrial site. Switch engines can move the heavies into town for the link-up, if need be. I have two of those on my roster.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Are you thinking about having your trains come from "somewhere else" (ie hidden staging/off-layout), enter the area modeled on your layout, drop off inbound loaded cars or empty cars to be loaded, pick up outbound loaded cars or emptied cars and depart for "somewhere else" ?
Exactly. Inbound trains will appear mostly from the Denver interchange via hidden staging, but laden freights and passenger service will depart in either direction. If I elect to use Denver as the interchange, then all departing trains would just go there to to connect to everywhere. My curerent plan calls for the tracks to enter down from "downhill and continue onward into the mountains as the "exit" for through traffic.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
- Will you need/want to sort inbound RR cars into the right order to be dropped off at modeled industries on your layout, or sort outbound cars before your train drop them off at an interchange track or head out of your modeled area ?
******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************8**
I envison a small yard in town and at the industry, possibly just a holding spur. The town yard serves to make up the local trains, provide serving needs and to receive freight cars dropped off for the town itself - food, supplies, furniture, whatever. The industry yard is solely to hold cars awaiting unloading and those being loaded and made up outbound. These will not stop in town on the way out but go through.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What kind of inbound and outbound loads are you visualizing ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Inbound: all of the needs of a small town, food, clothing, furniture, lumber or other building supplies, etc. Through to industry: formed metal products such as sheet metal, spools of wire, machinery items, and industrial liquids such as acids. Passenger consists.
Outbound: Empty freight cars from the town. Heavy fabricated loads from the industry. Passenger consist.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What do you mean "inspired by Emmet Brown (the character Doc Brown from "Back to the Future" ?), Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" and what do you mean by "mountain grades" ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
The first part is the controversial part, and to avoid starting a war , or giving away my proprietary ideas, that will have wait. No offense intended.
Grades: up to 4% if the locos will handle it. I plan to test that to be absolutely certain before establishing the final ruling grade.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
The only one of those four names you list that bring any railroad specific thoughts to mind outright is Brunel - and his name reminds me of railroading in southwestern England in the mid 1800s - viaducts crossing relatively gentle river valleys and tunnels running through what I would call relatively small hills.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Brunel also built The Great Eastern "Outside the box and unconventional"
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What kind of mountain landscapes are you visualizing ? Are you imagining:
- New England style mountains covered in leafy trees in blazing fall colors ?
- Narrow Appalachian style coal mining valleys ?
- Mountain sides with pale green/yellowing meadows on the rain shade side ?
- Trains running along ledges blasted out of sheer cliff sides ?
- Trains coming out of one tunnel to cross a river on a high bridge across a chasm and then ducking into a new tunnel ?
- Some other type of mountain scenes (if so - what style) ?
Modeled after the Wind River Range.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Or is your vision so totally different from what my questions above are trying to pin down that the questions are irrelevant ? If so - try to describe in your own words what you imagine your trains will look like, how they will run and so on and so forth.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Your question are completely relevant.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I am sure there will be more questions later on, but these should be a start in letting you get a start on firming up your vision of what you want your layout to look like and run like.
Grin,
Stein[/quote]
Thank you for the questions. I appreciate your interest.