New British Layout -- Open to Feedback

[RobertInOntario]

Here is a pic of my new layout that I've been tinkering with. I've already posted a few requests as I've wrestled how to do this.

My 'problem' is that I'm trying to build a small, portable layout in the spare room of our basement. I will probably tweak this even more and work on the scenery in due course -- the scenery is obviously not finished. I'm not even sure where I'm going to place the road and industries, etc. FYI, the street and a few other details are left over from a previous version of this layout -- hopefully I can re-use at least part of the street.

The layout's size is approx. 3-ft wide by 5-ft long. The outer loop uses 18" radius track (except for the outer siding where I had to use tighter curves) while the curves of the inner loop is entirely made up of 15" radius track. FYI, the layout is also British 00, which is similar to our HO.

My small tank engines (0-6-0's and 0-4-0's) can haul freight trains on the inner loop (and outer loop) while many of my larger locos will be limited to the outer loop, especially larger passenger trains.

(You can see my "larger" (4x6) layout to the right, leaning against the wall. I still hope to use that during the winter.)

At any rate, I'm open for feedback, both positive and negative!

Thanks,
Rob

   

[Herc Driver]

Interesting layout...there's a lot going on in a small space!

As far as feedback...first off a disclaimer... :hey: I'm not a layout planning expert . But here's my two cents worth...

I might try to change the elevation of the loops by a slight amount...say 1/2 inch from the outside loop down to the inside loop, which might provide more scenery possibilities and help protect the scenery since the layout is going to be portable. Is there any way to add a turnout to connect the inner loop to the outer loop along the east side of the layout (as pictured)? That way you wouldn't need to back trains out of the inner loop to move around the layout. And finally, you could add a hint of a tunnel or industry on the corner where the passenger train is parked to help block the end of that track and give the idea that the track leads to "somewhere else" off the layout.

Those are some quick ideas...but please feel free to tailor them to what your overall plan is for the layout.

[RobertInOntario]

Interesting layout...there's a lot going on in a small space!

As far as feedback...first off a disclaimer... :hey: I'm not a layout planning expert . But here's my two cents worth...

I might try to change the elevation of the loops by a slight amount...say 1/2 inch from the outside loop down to the inside loop, which might provide more scenery possibilities and help protect the scenery since the layout is going to be portable. Is there any way to add a turnout to connect the inner loop to the outer loop along the east side of the layout (as pictured)? That way you wouldn't need to back trains out of the inner loop to move around the layout. And finally, you could add a hint of a tunnel or industry on the corner where the passenger train is parked to help block the end of that track and give the idea that the track leads to "somewhere else" off the layout.

Those are some quick ideas...but please feel free to tailor them to what your overall plan is for the layout.

Thanks -- these are all good ideas. I'll consider the elevation change, although I'm worried that could cause derailments if it's not done properly? I'll definitely consider adding a crossover on the east side of the layout. Cheers, Rob

[TinGoat]

I thought that I'd beat Dave [BR60103] to this...

The Home Page of The Platelayers
We are a group of railway enthusiasts, living in Southern Ontario, Canada. Our interests are primarily in the railways of Britain, either as modelers or as armchair enthusiasts. We meet monthly in various local venues and membership is open to anyone who shares our interests.

Here is a conprehensive listing of British Model Railway Magazines:

Some of these are available at locally at Indigo/Chapters and/or your local hobby shop:

British Railway Modelling – the Quality Model Railway Monthly

Model Railway Express

Model Railway Journal

Railway Modeller

There are tons of small layout ideas in these magazines...

Don't be afraid to use tunnels and bridges to hide parts of the loop. It's prototypical in the UK!

[RobertInOntario]

I thought that I'd beat Dave [BR60103] to this...

The Home Page of The Platelayers
We are a group of railway enthusiasts, living in Southern Ontario, Canada. Our interests are primarily in the railways of Britain, either as modelers or as armchair enthusiasts. We meet monthly in various local venues and membership is open to anyone who shares our interests.

Here is a conprehensive listing of British Model Railway Magazines:

Some of these are available at locally at Indigo/Chapters and/or your local hobby shop:

British Railway Modelling – the Quality Model Railway Monthly

Model Railway Express

Model Railway Journal

Railway Modeller

There are tons of small layout ideas in these magazines...

Don't be afraid to use tunnels and bridges to hide parts of the loop. It's prototypical in the UK!

Thanks, Ron ... Good going on replying before David! (Still curious to hear his feedback though!)

I also use Hornby Magazine -- it's a great "ideas" publication and often has small layout in it.
Sure, I'll try to add some tunnels and bridges, especially to hide tighter curves. Part of my problem, though, is that I'm trying to keep the layout simple (so it can be moved/stored easily) so I'm purposely keeping it simple and fairly flat. I'll still see what I can do though -- I will have lots of work and scenery projects lined up for the winter!

Rob

[MasonJar]

Hi Rob,

Is this the realization of the planning from here: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1119">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1119</a><!-- l --> ?

If so, I'd ask if you established any goals, since as I noted in the other thread, we may not be able to provide suitable feedback without some sort of criteria for what you consider a successful layout.

In case you think I am being a little demanding/rigid/crazy on the "goals" I will tell you about how I came to my track plan. For a few years when I first got back into the hobby, I though that beginners had to build the requisite 4x8 as a starter in order to get experience, learn, etc, etc. Then they could build a "real" layout using all that knowledge gained from the "throwaway" 4x8. So I searched for the perfect 4x8. I thought I had found it in the form of something called the Beaver Creek and Kettle Mountain. I built the benchwork, installed legs, laid track, etc, etc. Then I found that I wasn't really sure how it operated, and the original article did not really explain it (it was all about mining, which I figured I could "translate" into something else - but it never did work out).

Then I started looking at the real railways that I was interested in, and in the time period I wanted to know more about. I settled on CNR in the 1920s and 1930s. I then enlisted some help from friends who have a lot of prototype knowledge, and I came up with a plan for two 2x6 foot modules that bolt together. There is no continuous run, but I should be able to operate them like a switching layout on their own. Plus I built them to HOTrak standards, so when they're done, I can take them to meets and hook them up with several scale miles of track.

Anyway, enough about me... You stated:

My 'problem' is that I'm trying to build a small, portable layout in the spare room of our basement. I will probably tweak this even more and work on the scenery in due course -- the scenery is obviously not finished. I'm not even sure where I'm going to place the road and industries, etc. FYI, the street and a few other details are left over from a previous version of this layout -- hopefully I can re-use at least part of the street.

The layout's size is approx. 3-ft wide by 5-ft long. The outer loop uses 18" radius track (except for the outer siding where I had to use tighter curves) while the curves of the inner loop is entirely made up of 15" radius track. FYI, the layout is also British 00, which is similar to our HO.

My small tank engines (0-6-0's and 0-4-0's) can haul freight trains on the inner loop (and outer loop) while many of my larger locos will be limited to the outer loop, especially larger passenger trains.

Well, you've made a small (check) and portable (check) layout. You want to try/do some scenery (check). But you are not sure where to place industries and roads. So what are the operational requirements for this layout? How do the industries figure into it (i.e. why did the railway come to town)? You also want to run passenger trains, but they are restricted to the outside loop - there's nothing wrong with that - consider it an different route. But figuring out the overall scheme/purpose of the thing seems to be elusive.

So as I stated in the other thread, I think that you should really set out some objectives. After all, how will you know you've arrived if you don't know where you are going?

Andrew

[BR60103]

Rob:
You might consider looking at some old layouts from the early days of Hornby Dublo and Triang. I think they both used about 13.5" as a smaller radius and around 17.5 for larger.
I have books of plans that might work -- Peco's plans for smaller layouts have a lot around this size. I'll look a few out and scan them. Or you can borrow them from the library when you return the S&D book. Are you coming to any Platelayers meetings?
The new McNally Robinson bookstore in Toronto has an unmatchable collection of British railway and model railway magazines.

[LiveSteamer]

Cool.

[RobertInOntario]

Rob:
You might consider looking at some old layouts from the early days of Hornby Dublo and Triang. I think they both used about 13.5" as a smaller radius and around 17.5 for larger.
I have books of plans that might work -- Peco's plans for smaller layouts have a lot around this size. I'll look a few out and scan them. Or you can borrow them from the library when you return the S&D book. Are you coming to any Platelayers meetings?
The new McNally Robinson bookstore in Toronto has an unmatchable collection of British railway and model railway magazines.

All of this sounds great, David. The Dublo and Triang plans sound good. What's this about the new McNally Robinson bookstore? Please let me know where it is, etc., as that sounds great! I hadn't heard of it as I thought Chapters/Indigo pretty much put smaller bookstores out of business. Meanwhile, I'll dig up the S&D book and get it ready to return.

BTW, we're planning to visit England in June/July. A trip to Devon is in the works and one big highlight will be visiting the West Somerset Railway!

Cheers, Rob

[RobertInOntario]

Hi Rob,

Is this the realization of the planning from here: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1119">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1119</a><!-- l --> ?

If so, I'd ask if you established any goals, since as I noted in the other thread, we may not be able to provide suitable feedback without some sort of criteria for what you consider a successful layout. ...
Well, you've made a small (check) and portable (check) layout. You want to try/do some scenery (check). But you are not sure where to place industries and roads. So what are the operational requirements for this layout? How do the industries figure into it (i.e. why did the railway come to town)? You also want to run passenger trains, but they are restricted to the outside loop - there's nothing wrong with that - consider it an different route. But figuring out the overall scheme/purpose of the thing seems to be elusive.
So as I stated in the other thread, I think that you should really set out some objectives. After all, how will you know you've arrived if you don't know where you are going?
Andrew

Thanks, Andrew! Yes, this is the progression of that earlier thread (and 1-2 others!).

I still need to have a think about the purpose/goals, etc. This is partly governed by the layout's limitations. For example, I can get practically all of my locos to run on the outer loop b/c it has 18"R curves. Therefore, passenger trains can run there. The inner loop is more limited to the small locos and smaller trains (although, surprisingly, I can still get a fair number of my larger ones, Pacifics, etc., to run well on the tight 15"R curves).

So, to a large extent, the inner loop will be ideal for freight trains using smaller locos and the small, 4-wheel British stock. I plan to run freight trains from the inner loop to the outer one and back again, while the passenger trains wait down the one long siding.

I'm open to suggestions re the industries, sidings, etc. I might even be able to add one more siding. At any rate, the layout's limitations will pretty much dictate what kind of operations and goals I can do (rather than the other way around).

I'll think about this more -- thanks again!

Rob
Rob

[RobertInOntario]

Hi Rob,

Is this the realization of the planning from here: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1119">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1119</a><!-- l --> ?

In case you think I am being a little demanding/rigid/crazy on the "goals" I will tell you about how I came to my track plan. For a few years when I first got back into the hobby, I though that beginners had to build the requisite 4x8 as a starter in order to get experience, learn, etc, etc. Then they could build a "real" layout using all that knowledge gained from the "throwaway" 4x8. So I searched for the perfect 4x8. I thought I had found it in the form of something called the Beaver Creek and Kettle Mountain. I built the benchwork, installed legs, laid track, etc, etc. Then I found that I wasn't really sure how it operated, and the original article did not really explain it (it was all about mining, which I figured I could "translate" into something else - but it never did work out).

Then I started looking at the real railways that I was interested in, and in the time period I wanted to know more about. I settled on CNR in the 1920s and 1930s. I then enlisted some help from friends who have a lot of prototype knowledge, and I came up with a plan for two 2x6 foot modules that bolt together. There is no continuous run, but I should be able to operate them like a switching layout on their own. Plus I built them to HOTrak standards, so when they're done, I can take them to meets and hook them up with several scale miles of track.

Andrew

Andrew: I still think the module idea is a good way to go. I could certainly consider this layout as a "module" and add another module to it later on. I'm also interested in transporting this layout to other sites, (train shows? there aren't too many British layouts at trains shows so this is an idea). Thanks, Rob

[TinGoat]

Hi Rob,

Forgive me while I nit-pick.

Unless you are going to follow a Module Standard that will allow your layout to connect to any other Module built to the same Standard It is not a module!

If you build other sections that can be joined to the existing layout, then you have a Sectional Layout.

The terms Module and Sectional are not interchangeable.

Modules are interchangable.

Sections only go together one way.

End of rant...

David [BR60103], are the http://=http://www.theplatelayers.org/Platelayers building modules? If so, what standard do they follow?

Rob,

I wasn't sure how portable you wanted to make this layout.

Portable, as in easy to move from current home to a new home.

Portable, as in being able to store it in a closet or tucked under your bed when not in use.

Or:

Portable, as in bringing the layout to a train show once or twice a year... [Or more often...]

In the final case, you need to make sure that the baseboard is rigid so that the layout does not twist or warp, and you may also consider options for making the layout self-supporting with permanent or removable legs.

It is hard to tell from the photographs if the layout has any framing or if it is just a slab of plywood.

The next thing that you have to do is figure out the maximum overall dimensions.

3-feet by 5-feet by how tall?

What is the maximum that will fit into your vehicle? [Back seat / Trunk / Roof-racks / Trailer / Van / Pick-up / Scooter...]

One good example of a portable layout is the Qualicum Sound Timber Company.

It is self contained with its own valance and lighting. There are side panels that slip through the top and cover the sides for storage and transport. These sides pull out and interlock with each-other to form a base for the layout to sit on for display.

I've also seen portable layouts that have their own packing crates for storage and transportation.

These can be as much as a full plywood crate with lid, handles and wheels.

I've also seen portable layouts that are "packed" in a frame of 1"x2" wood strapping held together with hinges and bolts.

[MasonJar]

At any rate, the layout's limitations will pretty much dictate what kind of operations and goals I can do (rather than the other way around).

This is exactly the frustration that led me to abandon (sell, actually) my 4x8 layout and switch to the modules.

At any rate, we are getting a little more insight into your goals for this particular layout:

• continuous run - check
  
• small - check
  
• portable - depends on your definition
  
• runs 0-4-0s through 4-6-2s - check
  
• representative of British layouts - ?
  
• representative of British prototype - ?
  
• can be used for shows - ?
  
• can be connected to another section - not yet
  
• operational scheme - unknown, but continuous run for display is possible

Regarding the elevation changes, I would vary the topography around the track, but not introduce any grade to the track itself. Since the layout is so small, I would think you are looking at 1) every part of the track having a grade, or 2) a reasonable grade not being obvious, or 3) a very steep grade in order to make the change visible.

Hope this is still helping...!

Andrew

[BR60103]

Ron: the Platelayers don't have a module standard. When I joined (30 some years ago) we had a modular layout but that gradually dissipated and was superseded by several other sectional layouts. The club's policy was always that we didn't have an official layout, clubhouse or other concrete assets.
Rob: The Peco plans books only produced 2 layouts near the 3x5 size; both a little larger. Their idea of small started at 4x6. One layout was an inside-out figure-8 while the other was a loop with a reverse cutoff and a branch to a second level terminus.
McNally Robinson is at Don Mills and Lawrence. They are a small western Canadian chain. They just opened in Toronto in April.

[RobertInOntario]

Ron: the Platelayers don't have a module standard. When I joined (30 some years ago) we had a modular layout but that gradually dissipated and was superseded by several other sectional layouts. The club's policy was always that we didn't have an official layout, clubhouse or other concrete assets.
Rob: The Peco plans books only produced 2 layouts near the 3x5 size; both a little larger. Their idea of small started at 4x6. One layout was an inside-out figure-8 while the other was a loop with a reverse cutoff and a branch to a second level terminus.
McNally Robinson is at Don Mills and Lawrence. They are a small western Canadian chain. They just opened in Toronto in April.

Thanks for checking re the Peco layouts, David. Thanks also for the McNally Robinson Bookstore -- Don Mills and Eglinton is just minutes from where I live to I plan to visit there very soon! My wife said it was like an up-market Chapters. Rob