Island layouts

[doctorwayne]

Sure, modular can be flexible. But what would be the specific advantage of having a hub-and-spoke (or "plus" or "star") shape layout with a fixed center and a fixed number of flexible arms, compared with just putting together flexible modules in whatever pattern happened to fit the desired purpose at any given time - long and narrow, doughnut-shaped or generic "octopus" shaped or whatever ?

I was viewing it more to suit MountainMan's seeming preference for an island-type layout, and one that, because of room shape and features, was fairly restrictive as to layout placement. So all of the various interchangeable modules would be restricted in size and shape, and would always be assembled in the same configuration. The layout size and shape wouldn't vary, but the theme of the layout could.

Anyways - what MountainMan actually does have room for in his layout room without blocking access to all the doors etc he needs access to (unless he has changed layouts rooms since the last time this was discussed, in March 2009) is an L-shaped N scale layout where one part is about 5 x 7 foot and the other part is about 2.5 x 6.5 feet, fit into the room in such a way that two adjoining sides of the 2.5 x 6.5 part is up against walls.

Charlie drew it like this back in March 2009:

http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/download/...hp?id=1758

Seems like a reasonable footprint for a room that size and shape.

Grin,
Stein

You're right: that design fits well within the design parameters, and would be a lot easier to build. The only change which I would make is to round-off the layout corners - the small loss in layout "real estate" would make navigating around the layout even easier, and the layout less of an "intrusion" into the room.

Wayne

[steinjr]

Mountainman - you must be flattered that all of us want to decide what layout is best for you.

I don't. I think MountainMan should choose for himself what he wants to build, and that he is totally capable of making his own decisions.

I didn't initially reply to his question about free-standing multiform layouts that avoid the walls, since I knew that he had already gotten a decent suggestion from Charlie back in March about a sensible layout shape for his room.

What I was picking on was that MM took a rather unusual special case (a large room with just narrow shelves around the walls and plenty of empty floor space in the middle of the room), and used that to make a rather sweeping generalization about how around-the-room style layouts in general is inferior ("limiting and wasteful of space") to walk-around layouts.

I think people should in general probably try to avoid making overly generalized statements about how this way of modeling is always superior to that way of modeling, or how this way of modeling is always inferior to that way of modeling.

In any given specific situation some approach may have more advantages and fewer disadvantages than another approach, given some specific design goal. In another situation and with other design goals, another approach might have worked better.

Seriously I hope that some of this gives you ideas. If you have access to old Model Railroader magazines (from the 50s and 60s), they use to have a regular feature called "track plan of the month". Back then, there wasn't really such thing as an "around the walls" layout. I doubt any of these track plans would give you exactly what you want, but they are interesting and creative, and have some ideas that may be useful.

Well, he might get ideas from older track plans, but I think that in this case the best approach for him would be to do a custom design to fit in the scenes he wants on his layout.

I can't recall off hand what types of scenes MM wants (if he has written about that), what era, what location, what type traffic etc. But maybe we all working together can come up with some suggestions that might spark more ideas for MountainMan if he tells us more (or reminds us) about what his design goals are.

Smile,
Stein

[steinjr]

Sure, modular can be flexible. But what would be the specific advantage of having a hub-and-spoke (or "plus" or "star") shape layout with a fixed center and a fixed number of flexible arms, compared with just putting together flexible modules in whatever pattern happened to fit the desired purpose at any given time - long and narrow, doughnut-shaped or generic "octopus" shaped or whatever ?

I was viewing it more to suit MountainMan's seeming preference for an island-type layout, and one that, because of room shape and features, was fairly restrictive as to layout placement. So all of the various interchangeable modules would be restricted in size and shape, and would always be assembled in the same configuration. The layout size and shape wouldn't vary, but the theme of the layout could.

That makes sense.

One could also do that on a smaller scale than having replaceable modules (or maybe really replaceable sections in this case) - just have "jigsaw industries" or "jigsaw scenery" (i.e. pieces of scenery and buildings on a baseboard that could be lifted out as a unit and replaced as a unit with another jigsaw piece). Ian Rice and Byron Henderson has described such jigsaw pieces.

Also, replaceable sections with tracks on them doesn't have to be at the end of the layout - you could have a jigsaw piece with tracks and scenery and buildings anywhere on a layout, and just lift the whole scene out and replace it.

Of course - if you were to run tracks across the edges of jigsaw pieces, it would demand a stronger alignment mechanism than jigsaw industries or jigsaw scenes, and probably throwing the turnouts from the top rather than having under layout turnout throwing mechanisms, but it still should be doable.

Smile,
Stein

[MountainMan]

Mountainman - you must be flattered that all of us want to decide what layout is best for you.

Seriously I hope that some of this gives you ideas. If you have access to old Model Railroader magazines (from the 50s and 60s), they use to have a regular feature called "track plan of the month". Back then, there wasn't really such thing as an "around the walls" layout. I doubt any of these track plans would give you exactly what you want, but they are interesting and creative, and have some ideas that may be useful.

I'm grateful for the ideas and advice. An additional complication of this layout that I forgot to mention is that we don't own this house - we rent it. This puts greater emphasis on not attaching a lot of stuff permanently to the walls.

I have several complete collections of trackplans from a number of different authors. They all seem to assume a certain "freedom" of construction. I'm exploring as many possibilities as I can in order to avoid making the kind of mistakes that Murphy guarantees.

[MountainMan]

Mountainman - you must be flattered that all of us want to decide what layout is best for you.

I don't. I think MountainMan should choose for himself what he wants to build, and that he is totally capable of making his own decisions.

I didn't initially reply to his question about free-standing multiform layouts that avoid the walls, since I knew that he had already gotten a decent suggestion from Charlie back in March about a sensible layout shape for his room.

What I was picking on was that MM took a rather unusual special case (a large room with just narrow shelves around the walls and plenty of empty floor space in the middle of the room), and used that to make a rather sweeping generalization about how around-the-room style layouts in general is inferior ("limiting and wasteful of space") to walk-around layouts.

I think people should in general probably should try to avoid making overly generalized statements about how this way of modeling is always superior to that way of modeling, or how this way of modeling is always inferior to that way of modeling.

In any given specific situation some approach may have more advantages and fewer disadvantages than another approach, given some specific design goal. In another situation and with other design goals, another approach might have worked better.

Seriously I hope that some of this gives you ideas. If you have access to old Model Railroader magazines (from the 50s and 60s), they use to have a regular feature called "track plan of the month". Back then, there wasn't really such thing as an "around the walls" layout. I doubt any of these track plans would give you exactly what you want, but they are interesting and creative, and have some ideas that may be useful.

Well, he might get ideas from older track plans, but I think that in this case the best approach for him would be to do a custom design to fit in the scenes he wants on his layout.

I can't recall off hand what types of scenes MM wants (if he has written about that), what era, what location, what type traffic etc. But maybe we all working together can come up with some suggestions that might spark more ideas for MountainMan if he tells us more (or reminds us) about what his design goals are.

Smile,
Stein

Actually, I didn't think it was a sweeping generalization, since I see this sort of thing constantly in the modeling magazines. Large spaces with shelf layouts all along the walls and a lot of space wasted everywhere else. Often the layout is in very narrow tiers one above the other. Maybe the real issue is that I visualize things differently thank most people seem to. Probably a short circuit somewhere in my youth, or one too many blows to the head.

I'm not looking to start some sort of wildfire here , nor do I expect anyone to plan anything for me. I'm just hoping for a few pearls of wisdom. My original layout plan was for the home we lost, and adapting everything to a much smaller space and a smaller scale has proven tougher than I thought it would be.

[steinjr]

I'm not looking to start some sort of wildfire here , nor do I expect anyone to plan anything for me. I'm just hoping for a few pearls of wisdom. My original layout plan was for the home we lost, and adapting everything to a much smaller space and a smaller scale has proven tougher than I thought it would be.

Fair enough. I know you are planning an N scale layout, and that you are okay with a point to point design, and I think you mentioned that you want one junction town (or at least somewhere where you can connect to the rest of the world).

What kind of era, engines, rolling stock, train lengths and what kind of railroading are you envisioning for your N scale layout ? Any prototype scenes that inspire you and you would like to try to recreate or use for inspiration for your layout ?

Smile,
Stein

[Brakie]

Guys,My prefered loop layout is still the old fashion "pit" layout where the operator is surrounded by the layout.

However,for N Scale I still perfer the 36"x80" hollow core door.


While round the walls is all the rage these days there are several things one must remember..One being are you or your wife or perhaps your landlord comfortable with drilling holes in the walls and these will be needed unless you build modulars?

As far as a 4x8 footer it can be more then a so called "beginers" layout.Many season modelers still like the 4x8 footers since its simple to build,easy to maintain and operate by one person.

[MountainMan]

I'm not looking to start some sort of wildfire here , nor do I expect anyone to plan anything for me. I'm just hoping for a few pearls of wisdom. My original layout plan was for the home we lost, and adapting everything to a much smaller space and a smaller scale has proven tougher than I thought it would be.

Fair enough. I know you are planning an N scale layout, and that you are okay with a point to point design, and I think you mentioned that you want one junction town (or at least somewhere where you can connect to the rest of the world).

What kind of era, engines, rolling stock, train lengths and what kind of railroading are you envisioning for your N scale layout ? Any prototype scenes that inspire you and you would like to try to recreate or use for inspiration for your layout ?

Smile,
Stein

Steam circa 1900, standard gauge, short trains due to mountain grades. One mine, one factory and one town. Freelance, and well outside of the box.
Inspiration? Emmett Brown, Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isombard Kingdom Brunel. I'm not very conventional.

[nachoman]

While round the walls is all the rage these days there are several things one must remember..One being are you or your wife or perhaps your landlord comfortable with drilling holes in the walls and these will be needed unless you build modulars?

You could build it freestanding with legs so no holes have to be drilled in the walls. Being claustrophobic, I have concerns with egress if doors or windows are blocked. Some places may even have laws against this or it may violate an insurance policy rule, but nobody would know unless you have to have your house inspected for some reason. Personally, I don't feel comfortable having to lift anything out or duck under anything in the event of an emergency. And, i don't want to make it more difficult for someone to get to me if I somehow get trapped. My layout room is a spare bedroom with one entrance plus a window. Suppose I completely blocked the window by the layout, and then I had a hosue fire while I was in the layout room. I would have to remove a section of layout and backdrop before I could exit through the window.

[MountainMan]

While round the walls is all the rage these days there are several things one must remember..One being are you or your wife or perhaps your landlord comfortable with drilling holes in the walls and these will be needed unless you build modulars?

You could build it freestanding with legs so no holes have to be drilled in the walls. Being claustrophobic, I have concerns with egress if doors or windows are blocked. Some places may even have laws against this or it may violate an insurance policy rule, but nobody would know unless you have to have your house inspected for some reason. Personally, I don't feel comfortable having to lift anything out or duck under anything in the event of an emergency. And, i don't want to make it more difficult for someone to get to me if I somehow get trapped. My layout room is a spare bedroom with one entrance plus a window. Suppose I completely blocked the window by the layout, and then I had a hosue fire while I was in the layout room. I would have to remove a section of layout and backdrop before I could exit through the window.

An excellent suggestion.

[Brakie]

While round the walls is all the rage these days there are several things one must remember..One being are you or your wife or perhaps your landlord comfortable with drilling holes in the walls and these will be needed unless you build modulars?

You could build it freestanding with legs so no holes have to be drilled in the walls. Being claustrophobic, I have concerns with egress if doors or windows are blocked. Some places may even have laws against this or it may violate an insurance policy rule, but nobody would know unless you have to have your house inspected for some reason. Personally, I don't feel comfortable having to lift anything out or duck under anything in the event of an emergency. And, i don't want to make it more difficult for someone to get to me if I somehow get trapped. My layout room is a spare bedroom with one entrance plus a window. Suppose I completely blocked the window by the layout, and then I had a hosue fire while I was in the layout room. I would have to remove a section of layout and backdrop before I could exit through the window.

Kevin,I have had ISLs that pass by windows and it was no big deal since I never use a back drop cross a window..In fact I perfer natural light over artificial light when I am working on or operating my layout...

I have never worried about fire per se but,as a warning I always installed a smoke detector in each room and hallway.That should give me enough time to escape through one of my preplanned escape routes-including skimming over the layout and through the window which may be the last resort if there is a sufficient drop to the ground.

[MountainMan]

The idea of a movable island is more interesting to allow access to the back for repairs and cleaning than concerns abut exits. I have several exits!

However, a "movable island" sounds like something of an oxymoron?

[steinjr]

I know you are planning an N scale layout, and that you are okay with a point to point design, and I think you mentioned that you want one junction town (or at least somewhere where you can connect to the rest of the world).

What kind of era, engines, rolling stock, train lengths and what kind of railroading are you envisioning for your N scale layout ? Any prototype scenes that inspire you and you would like to try to recreate or use for inspiration for your layout ?

Steam circa 1900, standard gauge, short trains due to mountain grades. One mine, one factory and one town. Freelance, and well outside of the box. Inspiration? Emmett Brown, Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isombard Kingdom Brunel. I'm not very conventional.

I can see why you are struggling with coming up with a design. "Well outside the box", "not very conventional" and "Inspiration ? Doc Brown, Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" all sounds very fancy, but aren't exactly very clear goals for designing a model railroad layout.


If you close your eyes and try to visualize a finished layout with running trains - try to describe what a train running session would look like:

Will there just be one person running trains at any time, or will there sometimes be two or more persons running ?

Will there typically be people watching the train or trains run ?

What do you mean by "short trains" - five cars ? ten cars ?

Will you be running freight trains only, passenger trains only, both or mixed trains (freight and passenger in the same train) ?

Will your favorite activity be watch your train move slowly through a dramatic looking mountain scene, or will your favorite activity be switching inbound and outbound cars at the mine, factory and town ?

Will there at any one time just be one train on the visible part of your layout, or will you need to be able to have two (or more) trains meet or pass each other somewhere on the layout ?

Where will your train or trains typically come from and go to ?

- Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something e.g. from a mine down to an on-layout washer/crusher/smelter or some such thing or haul miners and supplies from the town to the mine site ?

- Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something from a mine or an industry down to an interchange track or yard, where some other railroad will "pick up the cars later", i.e. between running sessions (or from an interchange track or yard to on layout destinations) ?

- Are you thinking about having your trains come from "somewhere else" (ie hidden staging/off-layout), enter the area modeled on your layout, drop off inbound loaded cars or empty cars to be loaded, pick up outbound loaded cars or emptied cars and depart for "somewhere else" ?

- Will you need/want to sort inbound RR cars into the right order to be dropped off at modeled industries on your layout, or sort outbound cars before your train drop them off at an interchange track or head out of your modeled area ?

What kind of inbound and outbound loads are you visualizing ?

What do you mean "inspired by Emmet Brown (the character Doc Brown from "Back to the Future" ?), Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" and what do you mean by "mountain grades" ?

The only one of those four names you list that bring any railroad specific thoughts to mind outright is Brunel - and his name reminds me of railroading in southwestern England in the mid 1800s - viaducts crossing relatively gentle river valleys and tunnels running through what I would call relatively small hills.

What kind of mountain landscapes are you visualizing ? Are you imagining:

- New England style mountains covered in leafy trees in blazing fall colors ?
- Narrow Appalachian style coal mining valleys ?
- Mountain sides with pale green/yellowing meadows on the rain shade side ?
- Trains running along ledges blasted out of sheer cliff sides ?
- Trains coming out of one tunnel to cross a river on a high bridge across a chasm and then ducking into a new tunnel ?
- Some other type of mountain scenes (if so - what style) ?

Or is your vision so totally different from what my questions above are trying to pin down that the questions are irrelevant ? If so - try to describe in your own words what you imagine your trains will look like, how they will run and so on and so forth.

I am sure there will be more questions later on, but these should be a start in letting you get a start on firming up your vision of what you want your layout to look like and run like.

Grin,
Stein

[MountainMan]

[/quote]

I can see why you are struggling with coming up with a design. "Well outside the box", "not very conventional" and "Inspiration ? Doc Brown, Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" all sounds very fancy, but aren't exactly very clear goals for designing a model railroad layout.

That is because my vision is going to likely alienate many ,modelers, who seem pretty conventional in thinking and practice. I intend my layout to be my own vision, and for it to serve me as a forum for trying new techniques and new concepts that can be blended into the basic foundation established. If you are familiar with the four I mentioned, you have the major portion of the answer already. I'm trying to get some assistance without starting a "layout war".


If you close your eyes and try to visualize a finished layout with running trains - try to describe what a train running session would look like:

Will there just be one person running trains at any time, or will there sometimes be two or more persons running ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I will be the solo operator.
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Will there typically be people watching the train or trains run ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
No
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What do you mean by "short trains"?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Generally, about 5-6 cars, due to grade, curves and heavy loads. I am forming a circus train that will be the probable exception.
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Will you be running freight trains only, passenger trains only, both or mixed trains (freight and passenger in the same train) ?
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Both dedicated freight and passenger. Freight several times per day, passenger once daily. Not confirmed yet, but no mixed.

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Will your favorite activity be watch your train move slowly through a dramatic looking mountain scene, or will your favorite activity be switching inbound and outbound cars at the mine, factory and town ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
A mix of watching and the switching necessary to service the town and industry.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Will there at any one time just be one train on the visible part of your layout, or will you need to be able to have two (or more) trains meet or pass each other somewhere on the layout ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
There will be a passing siding or two. The need for freight to move both in and out, and the "virtual length" of the line will prevent dedicated usage in either direction. However, geography will prevent a double-tracked mainline. I not envision passing as a primary objective, however.
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Where will your train or trains typically come from and go to ?
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From the Denver area, at an off-layout juncture with the real railroads, and either back to there or north towards Wyoming. However, the mountain trackage is proprietary, so outside- line rolling stock will be limited to what is necessary for expediency sake or too much trouble to transfer.
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Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something e.g. from a mine down to an on-layout washer/crusher/smelter or some such thing or haul miners and supplies from the town to the mine site ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
No. Transport of raw materials to the mine is by an alternate means other than rail which establish a visual "connection" to a large but mostly unseen part of the operation. I plan on an aerial tramway which will move raw material into the the industry. My goal is to power this tramway. Rail supplies the town, and hauls certain essential supplies to the industry, and then hauls heavy finished product to the buyers and moves people to and from the outside world. Transport of miners by work train from town, and to and from mine by aerial tram. Perhaps a continuing spur to allow occasional heavy equipment to be shipped onwards to the mine...
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- Are you thinking about having your train(s) haul something from a mine or an industry down to an interchange track or yard, where some other railroad will "pick up the cars later", i.e. between running sessions (or from an interchange track or yard to on layout destinations) ?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I plan for the town to be the interchange between the real world and the restricted trackage to the industrial site. I have not yet decided if the products will be hauled to town to be picked up by heavier engines, or picked up on site. This in part is based on a means of turning engines, which will be possible in town but unlikely at the industrial site. Switch engines can move the heavies into town for the link-up, if need be. I have two of those on my roster.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Are you thinking about having your trains come from "somewhere else" (ie hidden staging/off-layout), enter the area modeled on your layout, drop off inbound loaded cars or empty cars to be loaded, pick up outbound loaded cars or emptied cars and depart for "somewhere else" ?

Exactly. Inbound trains will appear mostly from the Denver interchange via hidden staging, but laden freights and passenger service will depart in either direction. If I elect to use Denver as the interchange, then all departing trains would just go there to to connect to everywhere. My curerent plan calls for the tracks to enter down from "downhill and continue onward into the mountains as the "exit" for through traffic.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
- Will you need/want to sort inbound RR cars into the right order to be dropped off at modeled industries on your layout, or sort outbound cars before your train drop them off at an interchange track or head out of your modeled area ?
******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************8**
I envison a small yard in town and at the industry, possibly just a holding spur. The town yard serves to make up the local trains, provide serving needs and to receive freight cars dropped off for the town itself - food, supplies, furniture, whatever. The industry yard is solely to hold cars awaiting unloading and those being loaded and made up outbound. These will not stop in town on the way out but go through.
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What kind of inbound and outbound loads are you visualizing ?
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Inbound: all of the needs of a small town, food, clothing, furniture, lumber or other building supplies, etc. Through to industry: formed metal products such as sheet metal, spools of wire, machinery items, and industrial liquids such as acids. Passenger consists.

Outbound: Empty freight cars from the town. Heavy fabricated loads from the industry. Passenger consist.

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What do you mean "inspired by Emmet Brown (the character Doc Brown from "Back to the Future" ?), Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isambard Kingdom Brunel" and what do you mean by "mountain grades" ?
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The first part is the controversial part, and to avoid starting a war , or giving away my proprietary ideas, that will have wait. No offense intended.
Grades: up to 4% if the locos will handle it. I plan to test that to be absolutely certain before establishing the final ruling grade.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
The only one of those four names you list that bring any railroad specific thoughts to mind outright is Brunel - and his name reminds me of railroading in southwestern England in the mid 1800s - viaducts crossing relatively gentle river valleys and tunnels running through what I would call relatively small hills.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Brunel also built The Great Eastern "Outside the box and unconventional"
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What kind of mountain landscapes are you visualizing ? Are you imagining:

- New England style mountains covered in leafy trees in blazing fall colors ?
- Narrow Appalachian style coal mining valleys ?
- Mountain sides with pale green/yellowing meadows on the rain shade side ?
- Trains running along ledges blasted out of sheer cliff sides ?
- Trains coming out of one tunnel to cross a river on a high bridge across a chasm and then ducking into a new tunnel ?
- Some other type of mountain scenes (if so - what style) ?

Modeled after the Wind River Range.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Or is your vision so totally different from what my questions above are trying to pin down that the questions are irrelevant ? If so - try to describe in your own words what you imagine your trains will look like, how they will run and so on and so forth.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Your question are completely relevant.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I am sure there will be more questions later on, but these should be a start in letting you get a start on firming up your vision of what you want your layout to look like and run like.

Grin,
Stein[/quote]

Thank you for the questions. I appreciate your interest.

[steinjr]

I'm trying to get some assistance without starting a "layout war".

The first part is the controversial part, and to avoid starting a war , or giving away my proprietary ideas, that will have wait. No offense intended.

None taken.

What, if any, "assistance" do you envision that I (or other posters here) might provide you with?

Stein