Peco Insulfrog Nscale Turnout Short?

[Herc Driver]

Hi Guys,

I need to tap into the wealth of experience here and ask this question.

The set-up: Peco Insulfrogs exclusively used. Track in question is where the mainline and passing line converge at a turnout. Short is sometimes strong and long enough to alter DCC signal and cause the Zephyr system to move all loco's at once at top speed except the "shorted" car or engine. Short only occurs with passenger cars equipped with metal wheelsets for "lighted" operation, I haven't noticed it occurring with any engines. Short doesn't always occur if the car passes over the problem spot at a moderate speed, but almost always occurs when the car is moving slowly over the turnout.

I've used Peco Insulfrog's on my layout and have noticed when a Walther's passenger car passes over the frog, not only does the car ride up (indicating the frog isn't deep enough for the size wheel that came standard on the Walther's car) but it shorts causing a noticeable spark as it transits across the frog. Since theses are supposed to be insulated, the only thing I can think of is for an instant the wheel makes contact with both the right rail (running a train clockwise on the layout) and the left rail coming off the passing track.

I checked the car's wheels for gauge and although they were correct, I opened one pair of wheel just slightly to match the other three wheel sets.

My questions are: Am I right in thinking the wheel is touching two rails simultaneously causing the short, and sending every other loco on the layout crashing all over the place? Has anyone had this problem with Peco turnouts before and developed a fix?

I haven't filed the gap between all the turnout rails yet, but will look into that today, just to make sure there's not a metal burr from one rail that could be contacting the wheel as its on the other rail. But wouldn't it be better to file the plastic frog area deeper to all the wheel to run through the frog instead of up and over as it does now (this occurs on all the Peco turnouts on the layout)? Although I like the very positive "snap" action of the Peco's, they've given me some problems with engines running through the turnout. I've had two turnouts that needed to be shimmed dead-level to stop engines from either derailing or shorting when they passed through the turnout, so I feel I'm missing something in my understanding of what care or precautions these turnouts need to run reliably.

Thanks!

[BR60103]

Herc: what is probably happening is that the two rails that come into the frog from the far end are exposed and there are wheels that are wide enough to touch both of them at the same time. If there is power coming from the far end of the frog then you can get a short. I get the same thing sometimes in HO. The solutions are to either replace all your wheelsets with very narrow ones or to put gaps in the rails beyond the frog so that only the one rail is live at a time. Some modellers will put a bit of insulating material (paint, nail polish) over the bits of rail that show in the frogs.
It's quite possible that you have some flanges that are deeper than Peco expected, especially if you have older equipment. You can also get a bump if the gauge is too narrow -- use your calipers on the back-to-back of the wheels and the distance between the guard rails on the switch.

[Herc Driver]

Thanks for the ideas - I'll try them as soon as possible. Almost all of my equipment is no older than four years old...but I can't say that I've checked every wheel set for gauge. I have noticed various sized flanges though that I'm sure make a difference. I'm in the middle of switching all my loco's to DCC, while building a new shelf layout, while trying to do everything needed in life, so like everyone else - time is precious. I will recheck the wheel gauge as well as the turnouts themselves for correct spacing and gauge.

Thanks again for the ideas!

[pennman]

Herc, try this web site helped me out a bunch when it came to my peco switches, how to wire, tweek and fine tune emm. Theres a lot of good info in there.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.awrr.com/PECO.html">http://www.awrr.com/PECO.html</a><!-- m -->
Let me know if it works for you

[Steamtrains]

I think your problem is with the width of the wheels themselves, If too wide,, they can bridge the gaps between both rails at the frog. Solution..? Check around to see which wheels are the narrowest and replace, or cut a gap beyond the frog....

I had a similar problem with a tender's wheels bridging the gap at the points on the diverging route...

[Herc Driver]

"In Code 80 Insulfrog turnouts, some wheel treads may cause an electrical short on the insulated frog unless the heel rails of the frog are isolated with insulated rail joiners.", excerpt from <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.awrr.com/PECO.html">http://www.awrr.com/PECO.html</a><!-- m -->

Bingo! I would bet money that this is my problem. I will check which cars seem to cause this problem, but so far I think it's only some of the larger diesels and passenger cars. I can definitely look into replacing the larger wheels on the passenger cars with a more narrow wheel. As long as the car is only momentarily on that area, the short is - well - short lived. But if I stop a car and it rests on that particular problem spot, I can always expect a short to occur long enough to affect the entire system, sometimes so much that all trains receive a signal to run at a high speed. I've had several derailments and crashes caused by this short problem and my railroad board of LPPs have threatened to file suit or strike unless I correct the situation and improve the safety on the line.


Thanks for the tips guys!

[BR60103]

Your DCC system should not respond to a short with "all ahead full". I remember that when we had a short all the locos would go back to where they were before, the running ones would accelerate again, but not where the stopped ones would start. We had a problem that the hand-held controllers would not reboot as soon as the locos. It's worst when all the operators have been working to remove the short and are not by their throttles.

[Steamtrains]

I've had a "runaway" situation a couple of times, when every loco wants to its thing at full speed..!!! Which leads to more shorts.... Best thing to do is shut the power completely (at the plug...), and correct whatever caused the problem, or, now, problems......... :evil:

[Herc Driver]

Pulling the plug is exactly how I solve this problem. It only happens once in a great while, but when it does, it's all you can do to get to the plug, then pick up the pieces.

[Steamtrains]

Luckily, I've never had any casualties, most locos get caught in a turnout that's set against them. A couple have run off a stub track, but they're not near the edge of the layout....

[Herc Driver]

I've had one of those "Adams Family" moments with trains crashing into each other in the yard as they jump to "full reverse".

Fortunately, since the various engines don't all have exactly the same starting voltage, only the fastest seem to arrive at the wreck site first.

I hope to look over the Peco information today and make some improvements that hopefully, will prevent this from happening again, or at least as often.

[Russ Bellinis]

An easy fix to put in a gap after the track is down is to use your Dremel to cut a gap in the rail an inch or less passed the frog, and then use a piece of styrene with acc to fill the gap, and keep it from closing up. After the acc sets up, you can cut the styrene close to the rail on top and both sides with a sprue cutter or rail nipper, and then use riffler files to shape the plastic to match the rail profile. A free source of styrene that is perfect for this sort of thing is to recycle the bread clips that hold the bags closed on loaves of bread. Once the styrene is filed to match the rail profile, it disappears from sight unless you look really close for it. Don't use files on top of the rails, though. Just use and Exacto knife to carve the styrene flush with the top of the rail, so you don't put scratches in the rail to attract dirt.

[dwight77]

I would like to second Russ' suggestion to create an insulation gap with your Dremel and a piece of styrene. That is the only way we insulate a section of track on our HO layout as well as our N-Trak layout. We never use insulated track connectors. Once your track is glued down, cut the gap, fill with styrene, glue, trim/file and you have a perfect insulation gap. It is far less noticeable than using insulated track joiners and does a much better job of maintaining track integrity.
dwight77

[Steamtrains]

I agree with you guys' notion that gaps are a "fix" to the situation.... The problem here is that the Peco frog has the gaps built-in, and his rolling stock is bridging the gap. The problem is not with the track, but with the rolling stock. I'm willing to bet it's three axle trucks that are giving the most trouble, and mostly on the diverging route.....The turnouts are a little "sharp" for the longer rolling stock and locos.