How to Electrify a railroad

[Green_Elite_Cab]

I think you need a substation GEC......All that juice has to come from somewhere. I also noticed that your soldering skills have greatly improved over the course of this thread. Keep it up.

You know, i actually have an open corner of my layout that i could do that with. I'll have to see what i figure, it shouldn't be hard if i use some of the structural trusses and things available to me. Thanks for the soldering comment!

I am amazed at the dedication you catenary guys show to the hobby. That is alot of intricate work. :mrgreen:

I agree, and have to say that commuter/passenger/electrics modeling is in a league well above typical modeling

as much as i like to appear awesome, i think all it really takes is patience. Its easy to become confused staring at a web of wires. Your eyes get lost in the maze. Most photos aren't sharp enough to really catch all the wires, and when they do, its hard to figure which in the jumble is which. However, if you think about it intuitively, rather than with what your eyes show you, coupled with some basic rules, the catenary no longer appears so complex. there will always be at least one set of wires touching the pantograph at any point, and for very short sections, two wires (such as turnouts, crossovers, drawbridges, and "breaks"). Much of the confusion comes from all the Auxiliary, pull-offs, and box catenary that tend to appear around those areas in the previous parenthesis. I've been working on creating "top-down" visuals that show the catenary wire from above, so that all the auxiliaries and hangers don't distract from the basic path, making it easier to understand for others who want to model it.

I'll give you that this is an uncommon prototype to model, but i think that should change.

Cab: Thanks for the Welcome. There is a lot more action over here.

Yep! Join the party!

Cant wait to see the signal arms and im also interested to see how your gonna do a signal tower. Did you get your silverliner Yet?

Yeah, i think i'm going to do the signal arms special on these two "tall" bridges. on most "normal" bridges, its just an angle piece bolted to the pole on the side opposite the grab irons, yet i notice that when obstacles are in the way, the signal arms will also rise up over the obstacle (a highway in my case), looking like smaller transmission arms. I'm going to do that, and then return the the regular "simple" angle for the regular height bridges.

The signal tower is probably going to be bashed from an IHC kit i had lying around (Waste not!). Its not 100% perfect, it does have the basic structure and shape (i noticed that the "legs" of the IHC bridge are a little different from the legs of the prototype, but they have the same "X" configuration. the "Bridge" portion also has the same pattern to it). the transmission poles will be made of special shapes company brass lattice with maybe some styrene bits. I'm going to have to build concrete footings and also find a way to make sure this new bridge stays anchored into the layout.

I have not got my Silverliner yet, and I'm getting impatient, but I'll wait until after tomorrow to ask about it.

Heres some interesting stuff for you.. For extreme curves like the ones at Gap Pa The PRR took a page out of the NH book with triangular catenary.. also notice the verticle angle stock to hold the transmission lines on the curve. This would look really good on your layout.

I WOULD try to take that on except that it terrifies me. The truth is i just drove past there today (it was Conrail days at Strasburg), and i was looking at that wire. It doesn't continue to be "triangular" forever, and i'm unclear on how it all comes together on the straight sections. Is that "top" wire supposed to be the auxiliary, but instead of being "inline", is offset to be verticle?

Also, that station REALLY depresses me. It looked worse today when i passed it.

also check out these wierd transmission line things .. I think they are tensioners ??

I think you're right. I JUST read something about those things and why they were like that, but i can't remember it now. I think there is special situations where they are needed for that extra stability, but I'll have look through my internet history for the week to find it.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Alright, I think i finally found a way to ask the question i've been trying to solve-

This is my current understanding of the catenary at a crossover. the Red and dark Blue wires are the "main" wires, while the Orange and Light Blue wires are the "crossover" wires, respectively. Each of these wires is connected electrically to their corresponding main wire and lowered to the same height at those locations (Red to orange, dark blue to light blue), but the red/orange and Blues are isolated electrically from each other.

Box Catenary, shown as green lines appear to hold the mainline wire to the corresponding crossover wire that it is electrically connected too, holding the crossover wire steady and at the same height as the mainline wire.

Somewhere between the box catenary of each crossover wires, they overlap at the same level (represented by the purple line), allowing the pantograph the smoothly transition between the two different wires.

Outside of this purple region, only the sections with the box catenary are lowered. Opposite the purple section from the box catenary (green lines), the wire rises and has an insulator set (brown dots). For example, the Light blue wire doesn't touch the red wire ever, it rises above the orange (and red) wires as soon as it passes the purple zone.


the confusion for me is what happens as the light blue and orange wires ENTER the catenary (indicated by the question marks). I know that at some point, all these wires are anchored either to the pole, or in some cases, the crossbeam. However, wouldn't there be an additional set of insulators near the poles on the ends between the box catenary and the pole on top of the other insulators past the purple zone? how does the orange wire connect with the red wire (and light blue to dark blue, respectively)?

How would this all be prototypically anchored. that is the only thing i don't understand so far.

[Herc Driver]

After reading through this thread, I'm stunned and amazed at the dedication and work. My hat's off to you GEC...really great work on the catenary.

Seriously, you could start a business making those cat poles and bridges. They look great!

(Now, would you consider making them in Nscale???? )

[Green_Elite_Cab]

After reading through this thread, I'm stunned and amazed at the dedication and work. My hat's off to you GEC...really great work on the catenary.

Seriously, you could start a business making those cat poles and bridges. They look great!

(Now, would you consider making them in Nscale???? )

lol, no congratulations yet, until the wire is hung, its not catenary, just an unfinished system! As far as making a business out of it, Model Memories has me beat, and i don't have the production equipment to make a lot of them!

Now, N-scale i think can be done, But i might got with a simpler set up. I think if you use the smaller Brass H-column, and what thin brass wire you can get away with, i think you could build a simple catenary system. I bet you could even make them with plastic at N-scale, i assume N-scale pantographs don't push as hard.

are you looking for N catenary? I noticed in the PC thread you mentioned a black GG1, sounds like you're interested in some electrics.

[ac_catenary]

GEC: I've seen crossovers done in four different ways. Two of which have air gaps which you are describing. You have it draw right the two wires never do touch each other both head to the nearest catenary structure to be anchored along with the trolley wire each wire will have an insulator before it anchors to the structure. In most cases the auxillary is in segments. The other way with a air gap is similar but the trolley and the messenger are linked together and meet the structure with hangers and not sepperated in this case there is a funky hanger that actually pinches the cat upwards so an insulator can be inserted on the trolley wire. In the cases that aren't air happed there is a insulated section break that is inserted. For tracks that are insulated from one another. The final one I've seen is for track crossover that are not insulated from each other. Section circuits of two tracks or more

[Green_Elite_Cab]

GEC: I've seen crossovers done in four different ways. Two of which have air gaps which you are describing. You have it draw right the two wires never do touch each other both head to the nearest catenary structure to be anchored along with the trolley wire each wire will have an insulator before it anchors to the structure. In most cases the auxillary is in segments. The other way with a air gap is similar but the trolley and the messenger are linked together and meet the structure with hangers and not sepperated in this case there is a funky hanger that actually pinches the cat upwards so an insulator can be inserted on the trolley wire. In the cases that aren't air happed there is a insulated section break that is inserted. For tracks that are insulated from one another. The final one I've seen is for track crossover that are not insulated from each other. Section circuits of two tracks or more

Is there anyway you could sketch for me a diagram of how these work?

So far, this is how i understand it, and i think i have what describes youre "second" Air-Gap method. The picture below is how i see it in my mind the main picture is looking broadside of One Half of the crossover, with the inset an "above" view.

the "A" end comes down and passes JUST over the blue "mainline" wire, and then goes down the same height as the blue wire. It overlaps the other crossover wire (purper region), and pulls up sharply. i assume the hangars there are the "funky" ones you mention. It then gets insulated at the "B" end and is mounted on the next pole over.


are the insulators in the right position? would all these wires be connected physically? When you think of the whole crossover, all the pull offs would be coming in at about the same part.

would the crossover wires have an auxiliar wire? how does that figure in?

also, just got my Silverliner IV today.

thanks a bunch.

[ac_catenary]

GEC: Great to see You finally got your Silverliner IV
I looked around for some pics that have both gaps in them .. Ive marked them up. The blue and red just show the section blocks in the catenary and are drawn on the trolley wire. Im going to try and do a sketch later.
AIR GAP 1.. This is the older style I think (crossing gap)
at interlocking Byrnmawr

at a former crossing switch at Bell


AIR GAP 2 .. Pitch hangers air gap
you should love this one at Shore ..busted insulator

Thorndale

[ac_catenary]

Here are the sketches
air gap 1

air gap 2

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Alright, i think i got it now, so there is only ONE messenger wire, but it is insulated in the middle so that the different "ends" of the crossover are separate. That makes a whole lot more sense to me! So in the end, there will be three wires anchored at each end, using your first sketch. Awesome, thanks!

[P5se Camelback]

Geez! hock: hock: I have enough trouble understanding the two rail DC wiring to even begin to try to comprehend adding two or three wires overhead!

I just used to love sitting at the Wayne, PA station at about 9 PM, watching that headlight appear around the curve that was right after St. Davids, and listen for the catenary to sing just before the big GG-1 with the Broadway Limited would sail through the station at about 80 mph, leaving a swirl of platform trash in its wake, as it made its way to Lancaster and then on to Harrisburg! It was so cool!

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Well, i didn't do much work today, but tommorow i'm going to be going back to cutting the brass stock to make two more catenary bridges. when those 4 get built, they'll all get painted, and i i'll begin hanging wire between those, and then move to the next section.

for the next section, i'm going to try for the wire cross span catenary, not the K-braces. it should look neat. additionally, i'm thinking about adding a grade crossing and an "abandoned" RoW in between the main tracks, mirroring practices like on the Amtrak Harrisburg line. I may also decide to actually add tracks, but i better make this decision before i finish the catenary there.

In any event, today i added some signal arms, but didn't get GOOD pictures of them. they are essentially 7 scale foot angle pieces with littl wires poking up to support the insulators (i need to add these) and signal wire. I'll cut them short when the wire is on.

you can kinda see them in the "inside" pole. they look close to the cross beam, but are about 6 scale inches above. this matches some North Jersey Coastline (aka New York & Long Branch) Catenary i have photos of. this is on the other bridge as well (which right now only needs another set of grab irons).

Its just a little detail, but it will look nice when the whole system is wired up.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

I ran into an interesting issue today, and i think i have a solution.

the basic problem is that a curved turnout sits nearly below a catenary bridge, and the turnout itself is on a curve. the diverging route requires its catenary wire to descend in from a catenary pole, but this is the only spot on the layout where a convenient catenary pole does not exist. If i were to about straight out, it would pull off somewhere between the two catenary bridge locations.

the inner mainline segment is repersented by a white piece of yarn, and the diverging line in question is the red yarn. you can see that they cross to close to the one nearby pole, and again, if pulled off simply, would end up between poles.



A pull off pole does not seem realistic, but, what if i added a pull off as part of the near by catenary bridge? This would pull the the red wire out far enough out that it could approach the switch from the correct angle while anchoring to the same catenary pole as the white wire (which would be perfectly fine).

the pull off would be about where the red arrow is.



the only other issue is that with a turnout on a curve, would the "box" catenary match the inclination of the curve, or would it stay strainght up and down for the time being?

on a side not, i added the insultors to the signal arms, but they can't really be seen in the photos. i'll take pictures later.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

After a lot of thought, i may have to change the way i install the catenary. I thought i found a photo outside of Sunny side yard that nearly duplicates my dilema. unfortuneately, the picture cuts off before the actual turn out, and i cannot see the full wiring configuration.

the main wires appear to be inclined, with the pull offs being pulled along the curve to position them correctly, and they dissappear off the photo before i can see where they go next.

I get the feeling that they just act like any other catenary setup over a switch, but with the "box catenary" (known as deflectors) just misshapen to match the main track's profile.

In any event, i'm going to try and get the next catenary bridge built, but i might use a wire-cross span instead of a K-brace, since this makes the most sense as far as mounting pull offs. I'll have to see what makes sense.

[P5se Camelback]

Hey, "Cab," don't they cover a situation similar to that in that packet of catenary drawings that the other catenary guy (the RR Architect from Philly) directed you to?

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Hey, "Cab," don't they cover a situation similar to that in that packet of catenary drawings that the other catenary guy (the RR Architect from Philly) directed you to?

nope, no they don't. I thought they did, but it doesn't make any sense to me. it shows a diagram of the deflector detail setup for a right-hand curve with a turnout coming off of it, but it doesn't really make sense when i try to visualize it. I'll have to see if their are other photos of this spot on RRpicturearchives.net or something.