Shortlines, Industries, and Empties

[BR60103]

I think the pool practice involves a regular traffic over 2 or more roads. The roads along the route contribute cars in some negotiated proportion (often by route miles). I think CN's auto traffic has pools with several roads in the US. I know that CP for most of this year had a 2-mile siding full of auto cars (and some intermodals) belonging to a bunch of roads.

[dave1905]

FRA law requires that foreign road cars be returned to the originating road asap by the most efficient route possible. That doesn't mean that they go back immediately, because a railroad may have a shipment to go the "wrong way" and only have a car available from a foreign road so they use it. The railroads generally co-operate in sending one another's rolling stock back where it came from. The other thing to keep in mind s that land is not free and neither are rail cars. No railroad is in business to store locomotives or rolling stock, and especially not someone else's rolling stock.

That's the AAR not the FRA by the way and its a association rule, not a law.

[dave1905]

Car that when emptied does not have to be returned to the car owner, but can be sent anywhere with it's next load. Cuts down on having to haul empty cars long distances, and saves the railroads capacity and money - an empty car takes up the same length in a train as a loaded car, but brings in no revenue.

Actually a pool car is exactly the opposite. It is a car that is in assigned service that cannot be reloaded. Specially equipped cars (covered hoppers, reefers, tank cars, load divider boxcars, cushion underframe boxcars) can be assigned to a specific shipper for a particular service, typically the roads participating in the ine haul each contribute cars. The cars are maintained in the service between the shipper and its customer and all the cars when empty are reverse routed home. The cars are normally stenciled "When empty return to...".

TTX cars are pool cars because they are specially equipped cars and they are in assigned service also. RBOX and GONX cars are general service cars and not in pools. Other TTX boxcars are specially equipped cars and could be in pools.

[dave1905]

All this is falling into place.

Let me make sure I have this right. If a customer of my shortline needs an empty, first thing we would do is check our storage track for one of our own empties.

If we didn't have a suitable car, we would look on our tracks for either a foriegn road empty or a pool empty. The only way we could use the foreign road empty is if the load was going in the direction of the foriegn road. The pool car could be used to send the goods anywhere, almost as if it was one of our own cars, the difference being we would have to share revenue with the pool car owner?

First what type of car is it. If its a specially equipped car then they would probably have a pool of cars to draw from If its a general service car then it would probably depend on where the car was going. If the car was going on line or a short distance they you would probably use the shortline's cars. If it was a long distance customer then you would probably use a foreign car.

Here's why. Lets say that the customer is 100 miles away and it takes 6 days to get there, 2 days to unload and 6 days to get back (assuming its not reloaded). If it is reloaded to another destination it could take months to return. So that means that you can get two shipments a month from your cars. If the shipper needs 5 cars a day, That means you need 75 cars minimum. If they get reloaded and take 2 months to return that means you need 300 cars in your fleet to support that one customer. If the shipments are further away, a couple thousand miles, and take 2 weeks to get there, 2 days to unload and 2 weeks to return, you are now getting less than one loading a month on your cars, at 5 cars a day you need a fleet of 150 cars to support 5 cars a day.


So if you will get a quick turn on the cars you will use your cars, if its going to be a magical mystery tour, then you will use foreign cars. For example one road at one time only loaded foreign cars for shipments going to Mexico since it knew the cars would gone for months (Mexico is better now).

[Puddlejumper]

Interestingly there is a BN boxcar that has been sitting a few miles from here for close to 3 years, it's last load was to a Giant Food warehouse in 2007 (about 500 feet from where it still sits). Hate to see the per diem on that car. I can also recall "re-appropriating" a 3 unit set of NS road power that came into our yard and using it for over a week on CSX coal pool trains before NS sent a Road Forman of Engines to our yard looking for them. We were really power short, and were barely getting enough coal to the plant to keep the dumper crew from getting furloughed. I suspect how fast you return a car or locomotive has more to do with your local conditions, the economy, and car/loco availability then any AAR guideline...

[steinjr]

Car that when emptied does not have to be returned to the car owner, but can be sent anywhere with it's next load. Cuts down on having to haul empty cars long distances, and saves the railroads capacity and money - an empty car takes up the same length in a train as a loaded car, but brings in no revenue.

Actually a pool car is exactly the opposite. It is a car that is in assigned service that cannot be reloaded. Specially equipped cars (covered hoppers, reefers, tank cars, load divider boxcars, cushion underframe boxcars) can be assigned to a specific shipper for a particular service, typically the roads participating in the ine haul each contribute cars. The cars are maintained in the service between the shipper and its customer and all the cars when empty are reverse routed home. The cars are normally stenciled "When empty return to...".

TTX cars are pool cars because they are specially equipped cars and they are in assigned service also. RBOX and GONX cars are general service cars and not in pools. Other TTX boxcars are specially equipped cars and could be in pools.

Ooops - seems like I have been spreading misinformation. Sorry about that. Somehow I got mixed up about RBOX and pool service.

And Dave - thanks for the information. This post and the other post you made on how many cars you need to get the customer a fixed number of cars a day with various round trip times were very instructive posts!

Smile,
Stein

[Gary S]

So pool cars are in captive service and general service cars can be used as the railroad sees fit?

[dave1905]

So pool cars are in captive service and general service cars can be used as the railroad sees fit?

They are captive in that they serve one origin or destination or one company's origins or destinations. So a covered hopper in a plastic pellet pool could serve one chemical plant and a thousand destinations or a power plant's coal train could load at a dozen mines and serve one power plant or another power utility could load coal at a dozen mines and unload it at any one of their four power plants.

General service cars are used as the railroad sees fit, subject to the AAR car service rules.

[Gary S]

Dave, thanks for that info. I think i understand how that works now. Would you mind confirming or correcting the following thoughts?

1. A loaded foreign car comes to my railroad and is delivered to a customer. Now I have an empty. I can either send it back the way it came as an empty. or I can load it if the load is going back in the direction the car came from.

2. A loaded Railbox (general service?) comes to my railroad and is delivered to a customer. After it is unloaded, I can use it to send a load anywhere I want?

[Brakie]

Gary ask:
1)1. A loaded foreign car comes to my railroad and is delivered to a customer. Now I have an empty. I can either send it back the way it came as an empty. or I can load it if the load is going back in the direction the car came from.
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Yes,you could load it and send it back toward its home rails..At any rate you would want that car off home rails quickly as possible unless you like paying Demurrage fees to the owning road...
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2) A loaded Railbox (general service?) comes to my railroad and is delivered to a customer. After it is unloaded, I can use it to send a load anywhere I want?
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Absolutely! As their slogan states "Next Load Any Road"..These were general pool cars and had no restrictions..

[steinjr]

Gary ask:
2) A loaded Railbox (general service?) comes to my railroad and is delivered to a customer. After it is unloaded, I can use it to send a load anywhere I want?
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Absolutely! As their slogan states "Next Load Any Road"..These were general pool cars and had no restrictions..

Btw - just curious - how were the Railbox cars financed? Who paid to have then made, and who paid for maintenance and repairs on them?

Smile,
Stein

[Brakie]

Gary ask:
2) A loaded Railbox (general service?) comes to my railroad and is delivered to a customer. After it is unloaded, I can use it to send a load anywhere I want?
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Absolutely! As their slogan states "Next Load Any Road"..These were general pool cars and had no restrictions..

Btw - just curious - how were the Railbox cars financed? Who paid to have then made, and who paid for maintenance and repairs on them?

Smile,
Stein

Railbox was owned by Trailer Train Company which was owned by several railroads..As far as maintenace the owning railroads did the repairs or a contract repair shop..Of course if a none owning railroad did the repairs the normal repair billing was applied.

[Gary S]

Thanks for the input, everyone. This stuff is really interesting and I don't know all that much about it.

[dave1905]

Railbox was owned by Trailer Train Company which was owned by several railroads..As far as maintenace the owning railroads did the repairs or a contract repair shop..Of course if a none owning railroad did the repairs the normal repair billing was applied.

To build on Brakie's comments, Trailer Train or TTX as they are now called, assigns cars to various roads based upon needs. It is fairly common for a "directive" to be issued where one railroad shifts empty cars to another railroad that wants them or if one railroad is stuck with too many empties TTX may force empties to other roads to share the pain. This is done with intermodal and automotive equipment.