Problems with turnout motors/switches

[RobertInOntario]

I’ve recently wired two turnout motors to two of my turnouts on my small 5.5x3’ DC HO layout. These turnouts are located on the outer loop and take locos to and from the layout’s small fiddle yard. There’s an inner loop and outer loop.

FYI, I’m using Hornby point motors that fit and work well with the Hornby turnouts. The wires feed into Atlas switches / buttons for controlling the turnouts. I now have two problems.

1.) At first, these point motors worked very well but then I ran into a problem. The inner loop (which is powered by the transformer that also powers the two turnout motors) is now receiving electricity even when the transformer is in the controller is in the stopped position. In other words, the loco should be stopped but it still runs slowly around the track.

2.) And now one of the turnout motors only switches the siding in one direction — it won’t switch the turnout into the other direction. This problem only started last night.

I asked about problem 1 at the LHS where I bought the turnouts. The guy that I normally deal with said that I should try to ensure that none of the strands of wire are are touching other screws, etc. At first, this seemed to help but the problem kept recurring. I’ve checked this and, as far as I can tell, there are no loose strands of wire.

Just wondering if anyone has any advice on how to solve this as I’m getting very frustrated. I also realize that I’ve done a poor job of explaining this and, if I get a chance, I’ll try to post some pics in the next day or so.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

Rob

[BR60103]

Rob:
The debugging technique is to remove one circuit at a time from the transformer and see if anything clears up.
Also check all joints in the wires going to the switches and then to the track blocks. Make sure no switch has the two control wires touching or the control and the return.
Turn one of your transformer plugs upside down where it goes into the wall (if the prongs allow it) -- you may have a cross connection in the wires or the track.

[RobertInOntario]

Rob:
The debugging technique is to remove one circuit at a time from the transformer and see if anything clears up.
Also check all joints in the wires going to the switches and then to the track blocks. Make sure no switch has the two control wires touching or the control and the return.
Turn one of your transformer plugs upside down where it goes into the wall (if the prongs allow it) -- you may have a cross connection in the wires or the track.

Thanks, David. I might try to trouble shoot this now -- I'll especially try the debugging technique as well and check the connections.

Rob

[Gary S]

I'm not at all familiar with the Hornby turnouts and controls, but David's advice is good. I would disconnect all the turnout wiring and see if the loco runs properly. If it does, there is an issue in the wiring/devices in the turnout controls. If the loco still won't stop, then the problem is there.

[nachoman]

Good advice in whatever you are fixing is to isolate the individual systems and test them separately until you find the bad one. In other words, disconnect the switch motor and see if the problem goes away. Without being familiar with those turnout motors or with your power pack, I can't provide specifics. But, if your trains are moving, that means there is current flowing to the tracks. This could be a power pack problem such that it is not shutting off. If you disconnect the power feed to your turnout controls from your power pack, and the trains still creep with the throttle closed, that means your power pack is shot. If the problem goes away when you disconnect your turnout control power, then the problem is with your turnout control wiring. My guess is that you have wires crosses somewhere between your turnout control and your track feed. Make sure you did not mix up a track feed wire with a turnout control wire somewhere.

[RobertInOntario]

Thanks for this feedback, guys.

I did some process-of-elimination work tonight and found out a couple things. The problem of the engine creeping around the track with the controller in the "Stop" position seems to be caused by a faulty transformer. I removed it from its current line of track and connected it to another line of track that has no turnout connecters attached to it at all -- and power was still getting to the tracks even with the knob set in the stopped position. For whatever reason, this transformer is acting up, so I might be buying a new transformer this week.

The other problem -- where the turnout button only operated in one direction -- might have been caused by some glued that got in behind it (don't ask!). At any rate, I've had to stop now because, although this trouble-shooting is fairly straight-forward, it is time-consuming.

Thanks again for your feedback -- I'll try to get back to this tomorrow!

Rob

[nachoman]

Thanks for this feedback, guys.

I did some process-of-elimination work tonight and found out a couple things. The problem of the engine creeping around the track with the controller in the "Stop" position seems to be caused by a faulty transformer. I removed it from its current line of track and connected it to another line of track that has no turnout connecters attached to it at all -- and power was still getting to the tracks even with the knob set in the stopped position. For whatever reason, this transformer is acting up, so I might be buying a new transformer this week.

The other problem -- where the turnout button only operated in one direction -- might have been caused by some glued that got in behind it (don't ask!). At any rate, I've had to stop now because, although this trouble-shooting is fairly straight-forward, it is time-consuming.

Thanks again for your feedback -- I'll try to get back to this tomorrow!

Rob

Nice work tracking down that bad transformer. You did exactly what needed to be done in order to isolate that problem.

[RobertInOntario]

Thanks for this feedback, guys.

I did some process-of-elimination work tonight and found out a couple things. The problem of the engine creeping around the track with the controller in the "Stop" position seems to be caused by a faulty transformer. ...
Rob

Nice work tracking down that bad transformer. You did exactly what needed to be done in order to isolate that problem.

Thanks! But could I have somehow damaged the transformer by trying to power the two turnouts with it? I'm also wondering if I've damaged the point motor in the turnout that only operates in one direction, i.e. are turnout motors easily damaged? FYI, the Hornby turnout motors are similar to Peco's.

Rob

[nachoman]

Depends on the transformer. Most have some kind of overload protection to prevent ruining in the event of a short circuit. I have even seen some cheap train set power packs with cheap thermal circuit breakers. It's possible you damaged it through incorrect wiring, but I think unlikely. What brand of power pack is this?

Turnout motors as you describe are basically two electromagnets (the atlas ones are as well). They are only designed to take a momentary current (just long enough to switch the tracks). I have no experience with hornby or peco motors, but I know the atlas ones will burn out if current is applied for more than a few seconds. One of the two magnets will burn out, and then it will only switch in one direction. Incorrect wiring, a short circuit, or a faulty push button could cause the motor to stay on too long and burn out.

[RobertInOntario]

Depends on the transformer. Most have some kind of overload protection to prevent ruining in the event of a short circuit. I have even seen some cheap train set power packs with cheap thermal circuit breakers. It's possible you damaged it through incorrect wiring, but I think unlikely. What brand of power pack is this?

Turnout motors as you describe are basically two electromagnets (the atlas ones are as well). They are only designed to take a momentary current (just long enough to switch the tracks). I have no experience with hornby or peco motors, but I know the atlas ones will burn out if current is applied for more than a few seconds. One of the two magnets will burn out, and then it will only switch in one direction. Incorrect wiring, a short circuit, or a faulty push button could cause the motor to stay on too long and burn out.

Thanks, Kevin. This is really helpful.

The transformer is made by Railpower & I bought it new about 5 years ago. I just went to an LHS and they said it has probably worn out over time. They have a new one in stock -- an Athearn one for about $40, which I'll probably pick up later today.

Based on what you say, I think I've probably burned out part (half) of the turnout motor. I think my wiring is OK because the entire set up worked well after I had initially installed the motors and switches, etc. One of my sons may have been the guilty culprit in possibly holding down the button for too long. On Sunday, he started pressing them at random (before I could stop him) because he liked the sound -- argh!

I'll try to continue resolving this tonight!

Rob

[Russ Bellinis]

Rob, one fix for burning out turnouts coils is to power them with capacitor discharge circuits. The way they work is a capacitor is charged up, and then when the button is pressed the capacitor discharges into the switch coil snapping the switch to the new position. As soon as the capacitor discharges, it is dead until the button is released to allow the capacitor to recharge. The kids can hold down the button forever and nothing happens. Release the button and the capacitor recharges in seconds ready to go to work again. I think both Kalmbach and Carstens offer books with simple electronic projects that would include capacitor discharge switch machines. I think I've seen some plans and instructions posted to the internet as well.

[RobertInOntario]

Yay, I've got everything working now!

I bought a new transformer which has solved the problem of having power going to the track when the controller is in stopped position.

I continued my trial-and-error testing and found out that both turnout motors are fine. The problem was with one of the Atlas button/panels where some extra glue had seeped into one of the terminals. I simply cleaned out this area using a screwdriver and now both turnout motors are able to function fine!

Now I'm going to just test out everything as I know problems can suddenly recur or new ones can start -- don't want to start celebrating too much yet!

The good thing about learning things the hard way is that they really stick in your memory!

Thanks for all of your feedback.

Rob

[RobertInOntario]

Rob, one fix for burning out turnouts coils is to power them with capacitor discharge circuits. The way they work is a capacitor is charged up, and then when the button is pressed the capacitor discharges into the switch coil snapping the switch to the new position. As soon as the capacitor discharges, it is dead until the button is released to allow the capacitor to recharge. The kids can hold down the button forever and nothing happens. Release the button and the capacitor recharges in seconds ready to go to work again. I think both Kalmbach and Carstens offer books with simple electronic projects that would include capacitor discharge switch machines. I think I've seen some plans and instructions posted to the internet as well.

Thanks, Russ. I appreciate this feedback but it looks like the motors are OK. This still sounds like a good option to consider though, as the kids sure like messing with those buttons! Rob

[RobertInOntario]

I just "played trains" for a good hour and the wiring seems to work perfectly. I'll keep testing it out and hope the gremlins stay away!

Thanks again for your feedback here.

Rob

[ocalicreek]

You just keep right on, uh, 'testing' as long as you need to...

Glad you got the problem solved. My advice just echoes the others...isolate, isolate, and isolate.

Galen