What Era, Railroads, & Locomotives are you set on?

[Ralph]

My experiences with steam have been very limited but I have a clear memory of how I felt when the American Freedom Train rolled through my town in Upstate NY headed by a 4-8-4. As the steamer thundered through the local crossing with its steam whistle blaring, I felt the power of it as the ground shook. Steam from the side of the loco briefly obliterated my view and then it suddenly got sucked away and I had a chance to see the driver wheels and the side rods moving. Suddenly it was by me and, as the ten or so special display cars on the train rolled by, I heard that wonderful steam whistle again fading in the distance. I was captivated!

Ralph

[nkp_174]

I suppose the larger steam locomotives are prohibitively expensive to operate these days (at least in the Northeast where i can see them).

Gonna have to find other places to see and understand them.

It's just a matter of having the right engine and the right group. (note: I didn't mention money, railroads, or cars...all of which can be handled by the right group).

At present, the only operational locomotive with a 4-wheel trailing truck east of Wyoming is Nickel Plate 765. There are a trio of Chinese 2-10-2s as well, but they are not quite the same experience (cool never the less). The big deal with superpower (a 4-wheel trailing truck) is that the peak horsepower occurs at mainline speed rather than drag speed...and so 765 has pulled 34 passenger cars at 79mph...it is a completely different experience from a branchline locomotive at 10mph.

Out west, there are four operational 4-8-4s and one 4-6-6-4 which are all capable of this as well...and any of them could put on an incredible show. 4-6-2s can make mainline speed, but they have to be double headed to haul a large enough train to pay its way...and 2-8-2s are generally too slow to do as much on the mainlines and are more expensive to operate in this role. This is why the Southern restored C&O 2716 (a 2-8-4). While in regular service they never had a 4-wheel trailing truck, their experience with T&P 610 (a 2-10-4) taught them the value of a 4-wheel trailing truck. Their class I overhaul of the 2716 was halted after the NS merger in favor of restoring N&W 611.

Additionally, a worn out engine (such as PM 1225 or any of the surviving PRR engines) will be prone to problems and require excessive quantities of work and money trees...and so it makes a bad choice even if it looks good on paper. On the horizon, MILW 261 will be rebuilt within a couple years and NKP 763 will be restored in the coming years (a great engine which was parked in great condition and owned by a very rich man who has restored 5-6 steam locomotives). Don't expect to see C&O 614 or N&W 611 anytime soon.

I've neglected Canadian steam in this post...which I shouldn't do, as plenty of good shows have been delivered north of the border (the 6060 at 80mph is a great example)...perhaps one of our Maple Leaf friends can chime in on the status of eastern Canadian steam.

It could also just be that steam isn't your thing.

Michael
(still set on the Oahu Railway of 1936-1946...with, hopefully, an upper deck of the DSP&P in the Fall of 1884...both with prototypical motive power)

[Green_Elite_Cab]

It's just a matter of having the right engine and the right group. (note: I didn't mention money, railroads, or cars...all of which can be handled by the right group).

Additionally, a worn out engine (such as PM 1225 or any of the surviving PRR engines) will be prone to problems and require excessive quantities of work and money trees...and so it makes a bad choice even if it looks good on paper. On the horizon, MILW 261 will be rebuilt within a couple years and NKP 763 will be restored in the coming years (a great engine which was parked in great condition and owned by a very rich man who has restored 5-6 steam locomotives). Don't expect to see C&O 614 or N&W 611 anytime soon.

I was about to say, wasn't there an operating N&W Y6 on top of their Streamlined 4-8-4 (class escapes me at the moment). Wasn't there a former Reading Company T1 still running as well? what happened to that? I know there is work to get one of the PRR K4s going. Sounds like they've lost steam, no pun intended.

I've neglected Canadian steam in this post...which I shouldn't do, as plenty of good shows have been delivered north of the border (the 6060 at 80mph is a great example)...perhaps one of our Maple Leaf friends can chime in on the status of eastern Canadian steam.

I remember the canadian steamers at Steamtown. I think these had the capacity to impress me, but because they are so limited as to where they can run, it is not like they can open the throttle and really roll. I think that alot of these steamers are just contained, and not able to run to their full potential.

It could also just be that steam isn't your thing.

Michael

I've considered this, but i do not think it is the case. I've seen some DVDs and pictures that might argue otherwise. Even something as small as an Atlantic can present an impressive display. Certainly, it is fascinating to study the operation of such machines.

On the other hand, i seem to have acquired an interest in arguably the most lifeless of rail equipment, electrics. They barely have any moving parts, apart from motors, wheels, and the passive gliding of a pantograph or a third rail shoe over its power source. Many just give off a whir, and they don't even have the rumbling of a diesel prime mover, let alone the chugging and moving parts of a steam engine. You can at least hear a diesel sigh a bit. An electric might make a bit of a whine before it goes, and then just purrs quietly down the right of way.

The more i think about it, i don't really think the draw is towards any particular type, its just random chance i live in electrified territory. I think there may still yet be just a small spec of romance in the rails left these days, and the rarity of and relatively contained conditions of surviving steam locomotives that prevent me from building these associations.

on the other other hand, GG1s manage to impress me, and none have run for over 28 years, only existing in museums, pictures, and movies.

Meh, it doesn't make sense, but its all a journey. I'll figure it out someday.

[nkp_174]

[quote="Green_Elite_Cab"]

I was about to say, wasn't there an operating N&W Y6 on top of their Streamlined 4-8-4 (class escapes me at the moment). Wasn't there a former Reading Company T1 still running as well? what happened to that? I know there is work to get one of the PRR K4s going. Sounds like they've lost steam, no pun intended.

[quote]

It was one of their Class A 2-6-6-4s. A very powerful fast freight locomotive...quite capable of excursion service so long as you have a heavy-duty mainline on which to operate it...it has the same 70" drivers as the 4-8-4 (Class J). The Y's were 2-8-8-2s and too slow to be of any use on mainlines...but too big for museums and tourist operations.

There are two Reading T-1s which have run. The 2101 was fried to a crisp in a roundhouse fire at the C&O's Stevens yard here in Cincinnati (ruining the temper on its steel and rendering her a static display). This was one of the Freedom train locomotives and C&O felt sufficiently bad that they arranged to trade her for C&O 614 (B&O Museum) which Ross Rowland restored and ran into the '90s. The second, 2102, ran on the Blue Mountain and Reading into the early '90s...but hasn't run since despite a couple attempted overhauls.

The K-4,1361, ran a little in the '80s. She spent a number of years in the Altoona/Holidaysburg Conrail shops (she's owned by the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona) before being shipped off to Steamtown to be overhauled. That was a nightname. It spiraled out of control...with unbelievable $$$ being wasted before the work was aborted a year or two ago. I'm not certain how much of the failure was due to the engine and how much was due to people (one person in particular, not the shop crew). Back in the '70s, there was some discussion of restoring and using both surviving K-4s to pull the Freedom train...but ultimately it was the Daylight, 2101, and the T&P 610.

[quote="Green_Elite_Cab"]

I remember the canadian steamers at Steamtown. I think these had the capacity to impress me, but because they are so limited as to where they can run, it is not like they can open the throttle and really roll. I think that alot of these steamers are just contained, and not able to run to their full potential.


I've considered this, but i do not think it is the case. I've seen some DVDs and pictures that might argue otherwise. Even something as small as an Atlantic can present an impressive display. Certainly, it is fascinating to study the operation of such machines.

[quote]

It is definitely true that most locomotives can impress...but the key is always to have a heavy enough train to make them work...and speed also counts for something. The problem with 4-6-2s and 4-4-2s is that their pulling power greatly limits their ability to haul a heavy enough train for a profitable mainline excursion while museum and tourist line service usually forces them to operate at slow speeds and prevent them from having heavy enough trains.

The exact opposite applies to 2-8-2s and such...they can pull a heavy enough train...but not at mainline speeds. So, they are typically confined to museum and tourist operations were they can't pull enough cars to work...but their are exceptions. I enjoy them parked, taking it easy, or getting in a good workout.

[quote="Green_Elite_Cab"]

On the other hand, i seem to have acquired an interest in arguably the most lifeless of rail equipment, electrics. They barely have any moving parts, apart from motors, wheels, and the passive gliding of a pantograph or a third rail shoe over its power source. Many just give off a whir, and they don't even have the rumbling of a diesel prime mover, let alone the chugging and moving parts of a steam engine. You can at least hear a diesel sigh a bit. An electric might make a bit of a whine before it goes, and then just purrs quietly down the right of way.

The more i think about it, i don't really think the draw is towards any particular type, its just random chance i live in electrified territory. I think there may still yet be just a small spec of romance in the rails left these days, and the rarity of and relatively contained conditions of surviving steam locomotives that prevent me from building these associations.

on the other other hand, GG1s manage to impress me, and none have run for over 28 years, only existing in museums, pictures, and movies.

Meh, it doesn't make sense, but its all a journey. I'll figure it out someday.

I like juice far more than diesels. I don't know why, but it has just always been interesting to me. That is especially the case after a trip to Europe. One local modeler has a massive VGN layout which depicts steam, diesel, and electric action. He's a neat guy too:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.deepwaterdistrict.com/">http://www.deepwaterdistrict.com/</a><!-- m -->

Time to get ready for church...

Michael

[rrinker]

Actually there's 3 Reading T-1's, 2100 spent some time in Canada and was converted to an oil burner. It now sits in Washington state after an abortive attempt at establishing an excusion run there. Last I heard, the loco is for sale. Some pictures that were posted show the side away from the building that it sits next to has been tagged with grafitti.

614 is supposedly being readied to return to service on the Greenbrier train. Someday I might be wealthy enough to afford to ride that one.

Strasburg's locos aren't exactly tiny. Not huge, relative to a Class A or a T-1, but they aren't little teakettles.

Steamtown does run some longer excursion off-property. Power varies though, so you need to pay attention to the advertisements to see when a run will use steam. Recently they ran with the newly repainted Lackawanna F's, one of which belongs to the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society.

--Randy

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Strasburg's locos aren't exactly tiny. Not huge, relative to a Class A or a T-1, but they aren't little teakettles.

Yes, I suppose, but then again, its hard to see it that way with the RR Museum of PA just across the street. Even the E6 Atlantic they have across the street looks a bit more imposing, and i figured that would be considered a smaller class of locomotive.

Again, I realize there are practical issues involved and its not necessarily economical (or even realistic) to "reactivate" larger steam locomotives. Given what Michael said earlier, that "big" looking Pennsy Atlantic might not be able to handle the train given the circumstances. I suppose its just that it bugs me that a piece of the past is sitting there, it exists outside of old pictures and the memmories of the few left who saw them go. Its like they're trapped in limbo. Not razor blades, but still lifeless. They're stuffed and mounted, but deceptively so, i suppose. Sometimes it looks like all they need is a little maintenance.

ah well, at least they're still around.

[ngauger]

They're stuffed and mounted, but deceptively so, i suppose. Sometimes it looks like all they need is a little maintenance.

ah well, at least they're still around.

That's basically the mission statement of any museum... To Preserve and Interpret artifacts for generations to come.

We have to "leave them" in mothballs so to speak, so that they will not deteriorate for our great grand kid's.. Great grand kids. (That's 6 or 7 generations there) Roughly 150 years.

In the meantime, they try too make them look the same way as they did when they were in operation. Museums would like nothing more than to fire a locomotive, even if they just had it go 400 ft up and down a siding. Great tourist draw!! but they can't. Any wear and tear on an "Original" Locomotive puts "miles (Or Hours) on the entire engine.. The wheels, frames, steam pipes and especially the firebox, boiler and tubing.

It's just not worth it to have 1 or 2 running, and expect it to be in "Historical" shape in 200 - 300 years.... And yeah - I hate it too... But if you get close to some engines.... You can feel the history,... It's a great thing......

I've been lucky enough to volunteer at a local museum (RR Museum of PA).. (Local being a 1-1/4 hour one way trip). I've worked on a few Locos and it's an enriching and enlightening experience...

[Green_Elite_Cab]

That's basically the mission statement of any museum... To Preserve and Interpret artifacts for generations to come.

We have to "leave them" in mothballs so to speak, so that they will not deteriorate for our great grand kid's.. Great grand kids. (That's 6 or 7 generations there) Roughly 150 years.

In the meantime, they try too make them look the same way as they did when they were in operation. Museums would like nothing more than to fire a locomotive, even if they just had it go 400 ft up and down a siding. Great tourist draw!! but they can't. Any wear and tear on an "Original" Locomotive puts "miles (Or Hours) on the entire engine.. The wheels, frames, steam pipes and especially the firebox, boiler and tubing.

It's just not worth it to have 1 or 2 running, and expect it to be in "Historical" shape in 200 - 300 years.... And yeah - I hate it too... But if you get close to some engines.... You can feel the history,... It's a great thing......

I've been lucky enough to volunteer at a local museum (RR Museum of PA).. (Local being a 1-1/4 hour one way trip). I've worked on a few Locos and it's an enriching and enlightening experience...

I suppose i hadn't thought that far into the future. I suppose museums (as we know them) are a "modern" thing. Until people began having free time during the early 1900s, museums probably weren't a common thing. In the case of a steam engine, a machine that is unique even amongst its own class of locomotives, it would be near irreplaceable once it began to wear out.

Still though, I would hate to think that in those 150 years from now, that no one will know the sound of a 4-8-4, or even some of those early diesels and electrics, or the feel of them operating. In a sense, you also loose that history in process of making them static. Its just like the different between an Air show and an air museum. Seeing say, a P51 or a Spitfire sitting in a hangar some place is fascinating, but it doesn't beat seeing one scream over head. computer simulations and models don't even come close.

I wish i could got out to the RRMoPA and tinker with things, but i'm about as far away from there as you are (and there are local railroad history places that can use my help). Still, i'd love to take a walk inside some of the pieces that are normally closed. The GG1 is a no brainer for me, but i'm also curious to see what it is like to stand in the vestibule of a Reading EPA (Green Car) MU, or the cab of that E60MA. One day, maybe. They had the E44 open for Conrail Days last year, so maybe one day I'll get a shot.

[ngauger]

Well - the tourist Railroads are constantly repairing their locos. I know there are different sounds to each engine, but you have to draw a line somewhere..

Your argument is a good one, but remember there are videos and sound recordings of almost all the engines. Yes, i know it's not the same.. But it's all we have.

As far as the E 60MA - or the Green MU, both are closed for now, but they are in the process of building a roundhouse, so they can restore and house more engines. Always a great thing.. You never know what equipment will be accessible by the public next

I was in the GG-1 at Altoona, really Neat!!!
I've worked on:

The Lindbergh Engine PRR 7002 E7s 4-4-2 - Renumbered from 8063 for display of the historical land speed record 127.1 MPH

PRR 1223 - Hello Dolly Engine.. 4-4-0 D16ab American Type. I helped light it - by climbing up on the boiler and adding light bulbs for all the marker lights and cleaning all the lenses so she would "look pretty" for our visitors.

Class B Climax W. H. Mason Company No. 4 - I helped re-attach the sand boxes on the rear of the engine.

Lehigh Valley Railroad RDC-1 Rail Diesel Car - Former Reading No. 9163 - I helped with the internal tear down, taking the seats out to send them for restoring, removed the carpets etc.... To get it ready to be restored.

.... and the B&O RPO # 81 Pullman - originally built for the Cincinnati & ST. Louis. DWZ81

So I've worked on a few beautiful engines in the 3 years I was there in Restoration. I hurt my back and had to move over to Education, (for 7 more years) which was just as great, because I got to help build the displays in the Education Center. Especially the G scale layout

[rrinker]

They had the E44 open for Reading Railroad Days this year, so I was able to go inside. ALl the times I've been to Strasburg and the museum, I had never been in that one. They also had a Reading Blueliner they just finished up open to go in. Not that I hadn't been in one beofre, but those were all converted to passenger cars and had the controls and gauges removed. They did have one thing messed up in their haste to have it ready - the seats were all installed inside out! The angles on the backs where the handles woudl go to turn the seats around were installed facing the window sides instead of the aisle. oops.
As for steam loco sizes, inside the museum, they have PRR 1223, a 4-4-0. It used to be in service across the street. I've ridden behind it. But as Strasburg got more popular and they added more cars to the train, 1223 couldn't handle it anymore, so they has to move tot eh bigger locos they now run. Actually, early on Strasbug pulled trains with the little Reading 0-4-0 camelback - I may have ridden behind that but I was too little to remember. Also quickly grew too small to haul the required train lengths.
Some of those other locos seem 'bigger' than the live ones at Strasbug but partof that is illusion - the 4-4-0 and 4-4-2 have tall drivers as they were high speed passenger locos, the operational locos are former freight haulers with smaller drivers, but more pullign power. Given the length of the heavyweight passenger consists used at Strasburg, plus the nearly continuous grade, and the relative shortness of the run, pulling power is more critical than top speed. It's hard to get a good comparison because when you get into freight locos over at the museum, you are looking at some really large examples which do make the Strasbug locos look kind of small.

--Randy

[Charlie B]

We have to "leave them" in mothballs so to speak, so that they will not deteriorate for our great grand kid's.. Great grand kids. (That's 6 or 7 generations there) Roughly 150 years.

Mickey, I resemble that remark. I already have 6 great grand kids and I'm only 67
Charlie

[ngauger]

LOL God Bless you, Charlie

[MountainMan]

A couple of years ago Colorado celebrated the annual tour of the state fair by bigwigs and staff the from Denver Post by bringing out the 4-8-8-4 from the railroad museum in Golden to head up the special train. Nothing in today's diesel world matches the impression made by something like that pounding past at speed, doing the job it was built to do.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Shoot, i'm starting to wish i didn't miss Reading Days. I had already missed Conrail days, but I thought i could make it to the Reading one, but that didn't happen. Well, there is always next year!

One of these days I'm going to have to make a trip over to Strasburg, at least before school starts in September.

[Sumpter250]

A couple of years ago Colorado celebrated the annual tour of the state fair by bigwigs and staff the from Denver Post by bringing out the 4-8-8-4 from the railroad museum in Golden to head up the special train.

I was under the obviously mistaken impression that all of the 4-8-8-4s that went to museums, had been permanently disabled, by directive from the Union Pacific RR. Is there actually a "BigBoy" still capable of steaming ??!!!