Mantua/Tyco 2-8-2

[Steamtrains]

I acquired this kit and lots of additional detailing parts and can motor to turn it into a reasonably good looking and performing loco a few years back. I finally pulled it out of mothballs today to start working on it (talk about procratinating.... :oops: ). As I started to view it with building it in mind, a few questions/doubts popped into my feeble mind...

1. The cast boiler has a large, squareish looking box in front of the smoke stack, which I presume is someone's idea of a feedwater heater. Am I correct in assuming this..?? I would like to do away with it to install a real-looking heater, much like Dr. Wayne's locos have. Where would I find this heater and associated piping..?? I would also need the injector into the boiler as the loco has no indication of it..not even cast on.

2. The connecting rods and valve gear are nice, shiny, chromish looking metal. I would like to blacken these. How would I go about doing this..??

3. I'll be chopping off the "tube" headlight and installing one on the top of the smokebox door on a bracket. What can I fill in the resulting hole with..??

These are just the first few questions/doubts that arose. I'm sure I'll be getting back to you all for additional help as the need arises...

Thanks for any light you might shed on this....

[P5se Camelback]

I am hoping that doctorwayne will jump in here with some actual solid advice as he seems to be "The Man" when it comes to detailing steam locomotives. But I kinda recall that there are three major types of feedwater heaters ... the cylindrical ones like the CNJ and the CN had, (called the Worthington, I think,) a boxy-looking one that I think maybe NYC and CNW used, both types usually sat above the smokebox in front of the stack. The third style of feedwater heater, as I recall, was contained within the smokebox and was not visible to the casual observer.

Cast brass examples of the Worthington feedwater heater are available from Cal-Scale and Precison Scale, if I recall correctly. I think they also have the "boxy" one, too, the name of which escapes me. For piping, you'll have to ask doctorwayne.

For the siderods ... I know that there are metal "coloring agents," called, I believe, "Blacken-it" which makes metals black, and "Weather-it" which has a brownish cast to it as it darkens the metal. I have never used either and so have no first-hand knowledge of how they work. In the past, I have painted side rods with Floquil paint, mixed to look like an oily coating on machined steel castings and the baked them at 200° for 20 minutes or so and then allowed to cool down as the oven cools down.

As far as filling in holes in a cast metal boiler, I would probably build up thin layers of Squadron Green Putty ... it dries relatively hard, sands quite well, blends well and takes paint very well.

Others may have differing opinions as to any of what I have said ... I don't claim to be the last word on anything!

[ocalicreek]

biL has already given you really good info, but I'll add a couple things.

You can also fill the hole with styrene rod & tube. Just cut a piece slightly oversized, coat it with AC, tap it in place and wait until it sets before cutting/sanding away the excess. If there's no styrene rod of a close size handy, find some old sprue (you do have some in a box somewhere, right?)

As for the feedwater heater, unless you really want another kind or dislike the one that's on there, I'd leave it there. There are ways to add detail to that basic casting like a thin brass or styrene overlay with rivet detail, associated piping coming into and out of the housing, etc. Filing it away shouldn't be too hard with a good clean, sharp file.

Galen

[nachoman]

JB weld works good for filling holes in metal boilers. It cures harder than most other fillers, but files and sands easily. For detail parts, I would recommend filing/cutting off all cast-on details and replacing with wire piping and brass details. Your best bet is to find a prototype photo that is from the era and appearance you want to achieve, and then copy the locations and types of fittings that you see. It doesn't have to be a 2-8-2 photos, and it doesn't have to look remotely close to the Mantua - it just needs to be something to show what types of fittings go together, and where. For example, you don't want to put two injectors on a locomotive that has a feedwater pump. As far as I know, all steam locomotives had two methods of getting water into the boiler. they would either have two injectors, or one injector and one feedwater pump. Another option - if you can still buy the detail kit for the bowser 2-8-2, you may want to go that route. The details will be basically the same, and you will ahve a diagram to show where they all go.

[doctorwayne]

For removing cast-on details from the boiler, I prefer a hacksaw and/or a fairly coarse mill file. Cut or file as close as practical, then finish with finer files. Cut-off discs and cutting burrs can be useful, too, but usually not as efficient in Zamac castings. I've even used a cold chisel to remove air tanks from under walkways.

I acquired this kit and lots of additional detailing parts and can motor to turn it into a reasonably good looking and performing loco a few years back. I finally pulled it out of mothballs today to start working on it (talk about procratinating.... :oops: ). As I started to view it with building it in mind, a few questions/doubts popped into my feeble mind...

1. The cast boiler has a large, squareish looking box in front of the smoke stack, which I presume is someone's idea of a feedwater heater. Am I correct in assuming this..?? I would like to do away with it to install a real-looking heater, much like Dr. Wayne's locos have. Where would I find this heater and associated piping..?? I would also need the injector into the boiler as the loco has no indication of it..not even cast on.

Your assumption is correct, Gus: that box is supposed to be a Worthington fwh.
Cal-Scale (part of Bowser) has a good selection of detail parts, and if you intend to do more than just this one loco, a catalogue from Precision Scale Co. will prove very useful. Cal-Scale offers both Elesco and Worthington feedwater heaters (Cary, also part of Bowser, also offers a larger version of the Elesco bundle, too). For a Coffin fwh, you'll need to go to PSC, and they also offer several versions of the Elesco and Worthington fwhs, including several models of the Worthington BL, a vastly different-looking one from the S- or SA-types represented by that "box". All fwhs required a cold water pump to get the water from the tender to the heater, and, except for the BL-types, this was a separate detail. Worthington heaters also had a hot water pump to take the heated water to the boiler: on the S- and SA types, this was another separate appliance, while the huge, usually side-mounted BL type encompassed the cold water pump, heater, and hot water pump in a single unit.
The fitting to get the water into the boiler is a check valve. Many locos had two, usually one on each side of the boiler, but they could also both be on the same side. When a fwh is present, one puts hot water from the heater into the boiler, while the other uses cold water directly from the tender -water is supplied by an injector, a type of non-piston pump working on pressure differences. Other locos use a top feed check valve - this has fitting for both water lines combined in a single unit. With either type, only hot water or cold water would be used as desired, not both together.

Here's a re-worked Tyco with a Cal-Scale Elesco fwh and a few other parts, mostly from Cal-Scale - this one has a can motor and a NWSL gearbox - a smooth runner and powerful puller:


Another Tyco, this time with a Worthington SA:

2. The connecting rods and valve gear are nice, shiny, chromish looking metal. I would like to blacken these. How would I go about doing this..??

Either a chemical blackener or paint can accomplish this. For blackener to work efficiently, the metal needs to have all oxidation and oil removed. Be sure to follow the instructions on the bottle about neutralising the chemical once the blackening has been achieved, too, or it will continue to "work" and could cause damage to the rivets holding things together.
For a painted finish, I like to first wash the running gear in hot water and dish detergent to remove all traces of grease and oil. I then use a suitably-sized brush to paint all reachable surfaces - don't work it into the connecting points of moving parts, but don't be afraid to cover the visible shiny parts. I usually paint the drivers at the same time, also using a brush. Then, with the gearing either disconnected or the loco under power, I like to airbrush the entire running gear - either hold the loco in place and apply power so the drivers turn at a medium speed, or push it back and forth, freewheeling, while you spray. The brush work coupled with the in-motion spraying will ensure that there are no bare areas showing. The following day, after the paint has hardened somewhat but not fully-cured, apply suitable oil, sparingly, to all moveable joints, then run the loco back and forth. This will not only distribute the oil, but will also remove any paint that may have inadvertently gotten into places it shouldn't have.

3. I'll be chopping off the "tube" headlight and installing one on the top of the smokebox door on a bracket. What can I fill in the resulting hole with..??

I prefer the styrene rod (or sprue) method: it's quick and also easy to file or sand, and easy to drill if you need to run wires to the headlight.
If you're adding detail parts, where possible drill the boiler casting and use the mounting pins on the detail parts. For this method, I prefer epoxy to hold things in place, and often add ca after the epoxy has set. If the detail parts don't have mounting pins, drill them and add pins made from brass, steel, or stainless steel wire. If a part is properly pinned in place, ca will usually suffice to hold it.
Another method to add brass details is to drill a hole in the boiler casting, tap it, and then drive a brass screw into the threaded hole. Cut off the screwhead, drill the screw's shank to accept the mounting pin of the detail part, and then solder the part in place.

These are just the first few questions/doubts that arose. I'm sure I'll be getting back to you all for additional help as the need arises...

Thanks for any light you might shed on this....

Here are some examples of feedwater heaters.
This is a Worthington SA. The heater is the squarish box atop the smokebox - these are available in several styles and sizes, but are basically all the same. Right beneath the front end of the high running board is the hot water pump. While most of the piping runs through the smoke box and isn't visible, the hot water line is the fat pipe (lagged with insulation) which enters the bottom of the casting. Coming out of the top of the hot water pump, and passing through the running board, is the hot water pipe to the top-feed check valve. As mentioned previously, there are at least two water delivery systems on all locos - on this one, there's a cold water injector feeding the same check valve from the opposite side. The cold water pump for the fwh is barely visible behind the handrail of the turntable. It's located below the lower front corner of the firebox, and is lower than the tender's water cistern, making it self-priming. The supply pipe from the tender arches over the top profile of the trailing truck and the pipe from the pump to the heater ducks behind the long air tank, snakes along under the running board, then disappears into the smokebox.


I don't have a photo of a BL heater, but here's a LINK. Scroll down to the 7th photo and you'll see CB&Q loco 4961. The all-in-one BL is the gizmo hanging above the rear driver, with several pipes attached.

The Coffin fwh was much more common than many fans realise, as it was often concealed within the loco's smokebox. When exposed, many consider it ugly, but it's one of my favourites.
Here's a photo from the Paterson-George collection of TH&B Berkshire #202. The only clues to the presence of a feedwater heater are the pipes coming from the side of the smokebox (there are several on both sides) and the cold water pump, in a similar position to that in my photo of the 4807:


In this photo, by W.H.N. Rossiter, of DW&P Consolidation 2458, the Coffin fwh is hanging on the front of the smokebox for all the world to see:


I hope to replicate this loco in HO, btw.

Here is a couple of views of a typical Elesco fwh installation. The "bundle", the actual heater, can be overhanging, as shown, or atop the smokebox, partially or almost completely sunken into the smokebox, or placed on the pilot deck. Pipe routing varied from one railroad to the next, or even from loco to loco, but the connections were always the same. There is another, less-common Elesco heater variation known as the coil-type, which also sat atop the smokebox and an earlier smaller version of the water pump which looks quite different from the one shown.
Incidentally, the name Elesco comes from its maker, the Locomotive Superheater Company - LSCo. or Ell-Ess-Co.





Wayne

[P5se Camelback]

Thanks, doctorwayne! I knew that you would have all the straight skinny on feedwater heaters!

And I apologize for getting the manufacturers confused ... I just couldn't remember the name Elesco and I totally forgot about Coffin and just got them all confused! :? :oops:

The Reading Company did not use Elesco or Worthington, so I'm not as schooled on the two of them as maybe I should be.

[doctorwayne]

The Reading Company did not use Elesco or Worthington, so I'm not as schooled on the two of them as maybe I should be.

Oh! Oh! I know that you know better, biL, but to avoid confusing any youngsters out there who may be following along, the Reading used Worthingtons on their inestimable T-1s:


Wayne

[P5se Camelback]

DOH!!


:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

I'm so Camelback oriented, I forgot all about the venerable T-1's ...

... even after chasing one at bthe point bod the American Freedom Train from about 03:30 hours until almost 09:00 back in the '70's!

:oops: :oops: :oops:

I hate how the ravages of time do embarrassing things to one's memory!

[doctorwayne]

I'm so Camelback oriented, I forgot all about the venerable T-1's ...

I figured that was what happened, so I hope you'll forgive me for the correction.

Wayne

[P5se Camelback]

Uh ...

... Every so often we all need our cages rattled! Thanks, doctorwayne, for shaking mine a little bit!

I needed it!

[rrinker]

BTW I wanna SHOOT Steamtown for the way they let 2124 go like that. I think I said that before. I get that she'll never steam again (although I dunno why not - unless they ripped her apart, when she originally left Reading rails for Steamtown the only reason she was taken out of service was her flue time was up - so unless they ripped other bits off her for other projects it's nothing more than any other well-used steam loco woudl need to return to service) but to just sit there outside and rot liek that is a damn shame. Best 4-8-4's ever built.

--Randy

[doctorwayne]

Randy, that photo was taken in 2008 - I heard somewhere that the locos around the parking lot were being re-painted this year. Perhaps someone else can verify if that's being done or not.

Wayne

[P5se Camelback]

From the looks of that photo, she needs more than paint! First, wasn't it 2101 that sat in a roundhouse and burned up in a fire and now we have 2124 being allowed to sit, rusting away ...

Why is it that almost all of the operating steam, continuous use and restored for use, are Canadian (no offense to Canadians or Canadiens) but we let the Amarican Iron, especially one of the more sigificant Northerns ever built, rust away, uncared for! It nice that they have such a nice new facility there but I have to wonder about the management of the facility! With the combination of Federal bureaucrats, who we know are pure as the wind-driven snow and above any kind or graft or corruption, and local Scranton government, well know for its squeeky-clean politics and politicians, you think they'd take better care of the historic pieces of railroad equipment with which they have been entrusted.

Or is this just another instance of where the private sector would be really creative about raising the necessary funds for restoration but Federally funded projects languish while the bureaucrats charged with the administration of a National Park just become more and more wealthy while the collection of artifacts decay due to "lack of funds."

The whole situation disgusts me!

Name one thing the Federal government does well, outside of the military, which has no real political or governmental administration or management. The Federal government can't even manage to keep our borders secure!

I'll shut up and sit down now.

[rrinker]

Well 2102 and 2100 are both in the hands of private owners and aren't faring much better. 2100 sits outside and has been hit by graffiti 'artists' and while 2102 is generally covered up, a lot of work is needed to get her running again and Andy Mueller seems to have neither the time nor money to do so, especially now that 425, an ex GM&O loco that was never in this area, is up and running to provide steam power for excursions. Steamtown's shops seem to do a decent, if slow job or getting things actually running - it just seems there is little demand or desire for a loco as big as 2124, and the Big Boy, well, there's no way that's going to run on Northeast rails.

--Randy

[P5se Camelback]

I apologize for my rant. I just find it upsetting that history is being permitted to disintegrate while we sit and watch.

As many of you have probably realized by now, I have little or no respect for a Federal government that tries to regulate my life when they can't even carry out the very few responsibilties required of them by the Constitution!

And having visited Scranton many times back when My Dad was the minister at the huge stone Elm Park United Methodist Church near the old Lackawanna train station, I heard many stories around the dinner table about "Scranton politics," which, as a prominent local clergyman, Dad often was invited to become involved in. He always declined. He said it would be disingenuous to present himself as a man of the cloth, an example of morality to his parishoners, while working hand-in-hand with the corrupt governmental officials and politicians of Scranton.

But let's not go any further with this ...

... Let's get back to the Mantua Mikado and the feedwater heaters!