Using The ShipIt! Computer Program On An ISL

[BR60103]

Ed: There are a couple of possibilities why the program is picking off cars in Alphabetical order.
1) You entered them that way. Not totally unlikely, but normally there would be a few variances.
2) the program maintains an list sorted by road name and number within car type.
Is it showing there the first 3 cars of that type or are there others in between?
It may happen that after you run the program a while the cars get shifted around a bit.
Can you specify a stay in the yard before they get sent out again? Say, after a car has gone to Smith and return it has a 10 day period (where it gets sent out west to be reloaded)?
I remember trying to tweak programs to get certain cars moving or not moving every week.

[Gary S]

Glad to hear things are going well with your experiments. Sounds like you'll be running your layout with the shipit program soon.

I didn't understand everything that you wrote up above, but am certainly gaining insight into the software and process. Hopefully I will have a bit of time tomorrow to play with the program.

I figured the frequency thing would be valuable. Glad that added some more randomness to the operations. I also like all your experimenting, making each industry a town and such, to get it to work like you want it to.

Today I was thinking about my layout and the shipping patterns and possibilities. At its most simple, a loaded car will come from off the layout to the interchange, then will travel on the layout to an industry, there it will be unloaded, and then the empty will travel back to the interchange, then be removed from the layout by hand between sessions. To represent this graphically, I used a system from Paul Mallery's book "Operation Handbook".

(plus in the arrows means loaded, minus means empty)
(interchange is the staging yard)
(Off layout means stored in drawers under the layout shelves and represents the cars traveling all over the country)

Off Layout ++++++++> Interchange ++++++++> Industry ---------> Interchange ---------> Off Layout

Okay, that one seems pretty simple to set that up for the ShipIt program to work.

Another simple one is when a shipper on our layout needs an empty:

Off Layout ----------> Interchange ----------> Industry ++++++++> Interchange ++++++++> Off Layout

Now, with me having interchange at either end of the layout, still shouldn't be that difficult. I have a 1970s rail map that indicates where each road went, and I'll set up the cars so each one's home yard is at the appropriate interchange.

All that sound reasonable so far?

But then we have the scenario where a load comes in, gets emptied, then the empty is sent to another industry and loaded, then sent back to the interchange:

Off Layout +++++> Interchange +++++> Industry ---------> Industry +++++++> Interchange ++++++> Off Layout

Does the ShipIt program do this automatically? Take an empty which is headed off the layout, and use it for a load which is headed in the direction that the empty car was going anyway?

[tetters]

I feel terrible, you guys are doing all the thinking and solving problems, meanwhile I haven't looked at the program in over a week. You do have my undivided attention though and I am learning a lot here. I may have some time this weekend to fool around with it some more and perhaps, try some of these fantastic ideas to get things rolling.

[FCIN]

Ed: There are a couple of possibilities why the program is picking off cars in Alphabetical order.
1) You entered them that way. Not totally unlikely, but normally there would be a few variances.
2) the program maintains an list sorted by road name and number within car type.
Is it showing there the first 3 cars of that type or are there others in between?
It may happen that after you run the program a while the cars get shifted around a bit.
Can you specify a stay in the yard before they get sent out again? Say, after a car has gone to Smith and return it has a 10 day period (where it gets sent out west to be reloaded)?
I remember trying to tweak programs to get certain cars moving or not moving every week.

David;
I'm thinking that this is the way that ShipIt is programmed. As it seems that no matter how you initially input the car data, it is always sorted out in alpha/numeric order. Last night I added 6 more cars to the database, all the same car type and with the same destination, but with assorted roads and numbers and as these cars appeared on line, ShipIt still brought them on line in alpha/numeric order. Really not so much of an issue with me, since certain car types are only suitable for certain commodities and destinations; it's pretty much as I expected.

Adjusting the load/unload times for certain shipments and the frequency of these shipments (keeping cars "offline" longer) really helps with making the program function in a more prototypical manner.

I'm thinking that after you've generated several operating sessions that things "settle down" quite a bit. Generating a lot of test sessions after I setup different configurations seems to demonstrate that.

My setup of ShipIt is certainly different than what most people would have, but I have been quite pleased with the fact that if I can "imagine" a certain setup, such as treating each industry as separate town, will work. Just going to have to continue to tweak it some more.

[FCIN]

I feel terrible, you guys are doing all the thinking and solving problems, meanwhile I haven't looked at the program in over a week. You do have my undivided attention though and I am learning a lot here. I may have some time this weekend to fool around with it some more and perhaps, try some of these fantastic ideas to get things rolling.

Well I'm happy that there is some interest in this thread. Maybe my experimenting will help someone else to set up and tailor ShipIt to their operations.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with ShipIt. It sure does make running an operating session simple. Just don't like the look of the generated switch lists, although it has two styles that you can use - neither of which look much like what I've used and seen on the prototype, but you can't have everything. Still it's quite workable.

Mess around with the program some and see what you can do with it. If nothing else, you might be able to use one of the pre-built operating schemes that comes with it and simple tailor that to work with your layout.

[FCIN]

Today I was thinking about my layout and the shipping patterns and possibilities (...)
(plus in the arrows means loaded, minus means empty)
(interchange is the staging yard)
(Off layout means stored in drawers under the layout shelves and represents the cars traveling all over the country)
Off Layout ++++++++> Interchange ++++++++> Industry ---------> Interchange ---------> Off Layout
Okay, that one seems pretty simple to set that up for the ShipIt program to work.

Another simple one is when a shipper on our layout needs an empty:
Off Layout ----------> Interchange ----------> Industry ++++++++> Interchange ++++++++> Off Layout

Now, with me having interchange at either end of the layout, still shouldn't be that difficult. I have a 1970s rail map that indicates where each road went, and I'll set up the cars so each one's home yard is at the appropriate interchange.

All that sound reasonable so far?

But then we have the scenario where a load comes in, gets emptied, then the empty is sent to another industry and loaded, then sent back to the interchange:
Off Layout +++++> Interchange +++++> Industry ---------> Industry +++++++> Interchange ++++++> Off Layout

Does the ShipIt program do this automatically? Take an empty which is headed off the layout, and use it for a load which is headed in the direction that the empty car was going anyway?

Gary;
All this is quite feasible to do in ShipIt. You more or less have the same set up as I do, but of course I don't have an interchange point - but am simply operating like cars are coming from a nearby yard to the industrial spur. This nearby yard is where my cars are stored offline. Staging on my layout is actually at the end of the industrial spur, but regardless, the concept is still the same.

ShipIt has basic information in the help file and manual (Chapter 14) that shows you how to set up interchanges. I think it involves setting up divisions and storage tracks. Basically as I understand it, your railroad (home road) is by default "Main" division. You would need two other divisions to represent the connecting roads, then set up storage tracks/yards, etc. to enable the interchange movements. It's also possible to route through shipments from one connecting road - over your road - to the other connecting road. Like this:

RR1 -------> AGT -------> RR2 or RR2 ------> AGT -------> RR1

Nifty feature!

I've never really experimented with using the interchange setup, although I've planned many layouts that would require it. There is an example layout included with ShipIt (Example Layout 2) that has a couple of interchange points and you would probably want to look that over to see how it's setup.

As for ShipIt using an empty at one industry and spotting it at another for loading, yes it does do that. You have to set a program option on though. It's found under File -> Options -> Options 3. There are a lot of options like that that you can set on or off - so use the help file!

[Gary S]

I printed out the manual this morning and will read over it today - that will give me more ammunition to start setting up the program for my railroad.

I may have mislead you by my use of "interchange". Basically, my interchange is just staging. I won't actually have the Class 1 roads dropping off cars there. It will just be done by hand similar to what you do for your staging. Just that my layout has staging on both ends. So as an example, a load form an industry on my layout will be taken to the interchange and left there, then after the operating session is over, I will take that car off the layout by hand and place it in storage drawers.

I've got some other scenarios to think about, will detail them later, but it basically involves my home road cars being stored at my "home road" yard and then being used for shipments, then returning to the home road yard. The home yard is in the middle of the layout between the two interchange staging yards at the ends.

Home Road Yard --------> Industry ++++++> interchange ++++++> off layout --------> interchange --------> home road yard

So the car starts off on the layout, goes to industry, goes to staging, then goes off layout, then comes back as an empty and sent to the home road yard for storage on the layout.

[FCIN]

I may have mislead you by my use of "interchange". Basically, my interchange is just staging. I won't actually have the Class 1 roads dropping off cars there. It will just be done by hand similar to what you do for your staging. Just that my layout has staging on both ends. So as an example, a load form an industry on my layout will be taken to the interchange and left there, then after the operating session is over, I will take that car off the layout by hand and place it in storage drawers.

Initially, I thought that the setup you describe would be the easy way to do it, but I'm wondering if the number of cars that are interchanged from each of these offline staging/interchange points might be determined by your train length. That's the way it works on my setup. You may actually have to set up divisions/interchanges in order to get it to work as you want. You'll just have to see.

I've got some other scenarios to think about, will detail them later, but it basically involves my home road cars being stored at my "home road" yard and then being used for shipments, then returning to the home road yard. The home yard is in the middle of the layout between the two interchange staging yards at the ends.

Home Road Yard --------> Industry ++++++> interchange ++++++> off layout --------> interchange --------> home road yard

So the car starts off on the layout, goes to industry, goes to staging, then goes off layout, then comes back as an empty and sent to the home road yard for storage on the layout.

That should work just fine. As you input your cars in to the database, you'd set the Home Yard for your cars to be "Home Road Yard". I'm pretty sure that when car orders need to be filled, ShipIt will first check what is available on the home road before it looked at the offline cars. Shipper would be your industry and the Consignee would be one of your offline staging points. When the car has been offline for the length of time you set, then it would be returned to Home Road Yard. I think there may be another option in ShipIt to insure that happens.

Since we've both got different operating schemes, it's a bit difficult for me to say that different set ups will or won't work. Just will take some playing around for you to see if it does work okay for you. You can sure spend a lot of hours messing with the ShipIt program, but for me at least, it seems to be worth it, at least so far.

As I mentioned in the post to David, I added 6 new cars and a new car code to the database last night. I changed the name of one of the industries and added another car spot to that industry to receive these cars and then another product/car type for those cars. ShipIt updated everything automatically including the train schedule to reflect these changes. All I had to do at that point, was to add one shipper of that product/car type and one consignee for it, adjust the load/unload time and frequency and it worked just fine.

After the initial setup, it appears to be quite easy to add more cars, commodities, shippers and consignees without having to start from scratch. Thank goodness!

[Gary S]

Ed, I wanted to revive this thread for a bit. On your layout, for the staging, is it basically set up as an industry that receives all the goods that come from shippers on your layout, and produces all the goods that the layout consignees request?

[FCIN]

Ed, I wanted to revive this thread for a bit. On your layout, for the staging, is it basically set up as an industry that receives all the goods that come from shippers on your layout, and produces all the goods that the layout consignees request?

Gary;
More or less set up that way. It's a yard with a car capacity well above the total cars I currently have. All cars in the database are setup with that yard being their "Home Yard". The "Shipper" for all commodities to "Consignees" on the industrial spur is the yard. I don't think that ShipIt cares if I call my staging a yard, a industry or a siding, as long as I have a shipping point from somewhere.

I don't have any customers on my industrial spur that ship, only receive, but if I did, the "Consignee" for their shipments would also be the yard. With the operational concept I have, that would be prototypical, as everything going to the spur would come from the yard and everything coming off the spur would go back to the yard for further movement.

It's a very simple set up and works pretty well for my layout operations. I haven't messed around with the ShipIt program for several days now, and although it's pretty handy for creating a quick operating session, there are still some things that I can't find a way to get working right.

Biggest problem right now, is the concept of overflow cars to certain customers. I have one customer that currently only unloads one car in a 24 hr period, but the track can hold 3 cars. If I set the car capacity for that shipper as 3, then ShipIt will try and keep 2 or 3 cars at that customer most of the time, with the result that if there are 3 cars on that track tonight and I generate a switch list, it may pull all 3 cars from the track, rather than spot the next one in line to unload.

Have also tried giving that customers track its own name with a 2 car capacity and showing that track as the "Storage Yard" point for shipments to that customer. Then setting the customers track capacity as 1 car. What happens then, is that ShipIt will send a car from the yard to the "Storage Track" because there is a car spotted at the customer. But on that same switch list it will have the car that is on spot to be pulled. It won't spot the "Storage Yard" car until the next session, which of course is not what you'd do. Can't find any way to get that to work in a prototypical manner. Apparently, ShipIt doesn't check to see if the car on spot is empty and ready to pull, before it looks for cars to send from the yard to the customer!

I have been using the program to generate sessions for operating my layout, mainly to test the program and as a quick way to create an operating session. But I don't know at this point if I'll actually use it once the layout gets to a permanent status. Just seems to be too many prototype situations that I can't make work right with the program.

That last paragraph brings up a topic for another thread elsewhere, but I've already fallen in to the trap of being able to operate trains, so nothing else is getting done!!! Every time I come down here thinking that I'm going to do this or that on the layout, I end up just spending a couple of hours operating the layout! Track plan seems to be final and it's a good one with plenty of operation, but I'll never get it permanently built at this rate!

[Gary S]

All cars in the database are setup with that yard being their "Home Yard". The "Shipper" for all commodities to "Consignees" on the industrial spur is the yard. I don't think that ShipIt cares if I call my staging a yard, a industry or a siding, as long as I have a shipping point from somewhere.

I don't have any customers on my industrial spur that ship, only receive, but if I did, the "Consignee" for their shipments would also be the yard. With the operational concept I have, that would be prototypical, as everything going to the spur would come from the yard and everything coming off the spur would go back to the yard for further movement.

That's what I was thinking, thank you for the clarification.

Biggest problem right now, is the concept of overflow cars to certain customers. I have one customer that currently only unloads one car in a 24 hr period, but the track can hold 3 cars. If I set the car capacity for that shipper as 3, then ShipIt will try and keep 2 or 3 cars at that customer most of the time, with the result that if there are 3 cars on that track tonight and I generate a switch list, it may pull all 3 cars from the track, rather than spot the next one in line to unload.

Did you mean unload or load? This industry is a shipper, right, and would have extra empties sitting there for loading? But the program is acting like all 3 cars get loaded between operating sessions and then hauls the cars back to staging?

I have been using the program to generate sessions for operating my layout, mainly to test the program and as a quick way to create an operating session. But I don't know at this point if I'll actually use it once the layout gets to a permanent status. Just seems to be too many prototype situations that I can't make work right with the program.

I hate to hear that. What else do you have in mind? I think it would be a good idea for me to use whatever program you use because you certainly know the prototype side of operations.

That last paragraph brings up a topic for another thread elsewhere, but I've already fallen in to the trap of being able to operate trains, so nothing else is getting done!!! Every time I come down here thinking that I'm going to do this or that on the layout, I end up just spending a couple of hours operating the layout! Track plan seems to be final and it's a good one with plenty of operation, but I'll never get it permanently built at this rate!

I know what you mean! There are a lot of distractions in this hobby! Like bashing 27 reefers for the potato factory! I think sometimes we just need to set goals, for example, "this weekend, I will accomplish X" and then strive for that. May help keep us focused on the task at hand.

Okay, another question: Having staging on only one end seems fairly straightforward. But how would the prototype, such as the LAJ, schedule the trains with "staging"at both ends like my layout?

One scenario I see is that a train would start at the first "staging" yard with the incoming cars, then as it sets out the incoming cars, it would pick up only the cars headed to the other staging yard. Once it travels the whole layout to the other end, it would drop off the outgoing cars there and pick up a new set of cars coming to the layout, then reverse its travels dropping off those cars and picking up any cars destined back to the original staging yard. That train would be called a "turn", right? Reckon ShipIt could do that?

And what other ways could the job be handled besides a "turn"?

[FCIN]

Biggest problem right now, is the concept of overflow cars to certain customers. I have one customer that currently only unloads one car in a 24 hr period, but the track can hold 3 cars. If I set the car capacity for that shipper as 3, then ShipIt will try and keep 2 or 3 cars at that customer most of the time, with the result that if there are 3 cars on that track tonight and I generate a switch list, it may pull all 3 cars from the track, rather than spot the next one in line to unload.

Did you mean unload or load? This industry is a shipper, right, and would have extra empties sitting there for loading? But the program is acting like all 3 cars get loaded between operating sessions and then hauls the cars back to staging?

Unload. This customer is a small feed mill or other facility that receives inbound grain in covered hoppers and typically unloads a single 100 ton covered hopper of grain in a 24 hour period. However, from time to time they might receive more cars at one time then they would unload in a day. There are numerous industries like that around. What I want to duplicate, would be if the mill received 2 cars today; car 1 is spotted at the pit with car 2 behind it. The next day (session) car 1 is empty and car 2 is spotted over the pit, either by mill personnel moving it or by the train crew.

I even tried using specific spot numbers for this customer, with spot 1 being the pit and spots 2 and 3 being hold points, but that of course won't work either, as ShipIt treats each spot the same. Might have a car at the pit, one behind it and another just in the clear on the track to be spotted later and ShipIt might pull either of the waiting loads before it moved the car that actually was being unloaded. Not a suitable situation. Hope I explained that okay.

Although I can't test it, you could have the same situation if the customer was a shipper and the extra cars were for loading. It should pick one of the available empties and spot it when the outbound load is pulled, but I can't say if it would do that correctly. It's supposed to, but...

I have been using the program to generate sessions for operating my layout, mainly to test the program and as a quick way to create an operating session. But I don't know at this point if I'll actually use it once the layout gets to a permanent status. Just seems to be too many prototype situations that I can't make work right with the program.

I hate to hear that. What else do you have in mind? I think it would be a good idea for me to use whatever program you use because you certainly know the prototype side of operations.

Without going into a lot of detail in this posting, my alternative will be to use simplified prototype paperwork to keep track of everything and use that to make a switch list. I've already made a simple switch list form quite similar to those I used in the real world, but would need a few other simplified forms. Adds paper work to the operations, but does allow you to be the agent and also assume the role of customer too.

Of course there is also the car card waybill system that I could use and make switch lists from those. Don't want to have to be working the layout with a fist full of little waybills in one hand and the throttle in the other. I'd just use use the waybills to keep track of what was spotted on line and when.

In simplest form, I'd just make up a switch list based on what is currently on the layout and how many cars I want to switch on that day and how long I'd want the session to last.

I think sometimes we just need to set goals, for example, "this weekend, I will accomplish X" and then strive for that. May help keep us focused on the task at hand.

Yep, I need to tell myself FOCUS! FOCUS! FOCUS!

Okay, another question: Having staging on only one end seems fairly straightforward. But how would the prototype, such as the LAJ, schedule the trains with "staging"at both ends like my layout?

One scenario I see is that a train would start at the first "staging" yard with the incoming cars, then as it sets out the incoming cars, it would pick up only the cars headed to the other staging yard. Once it travels the whole layout to the other end, it would drop off the outgoing cars there and pick up a new set of cars coming to the layout, then reverse its travels dropping off those cars and picking up any cars destined back to the original staging yard. That train would be called a "turn", right? Reckon ShipIt could do that?

I'm thinking that ShipIt would work just fine in the scenario you describe, but in all likelihood, it would create the session so that you'd work everything along the way from Staging A to Staging B and then again coming from Staging B back to Staging A. Probably will take some experimenting with different schedules to see if it will work the way you describe.

And what other ways could the job be handled besides a "turn"?

You could set up several train schedules for each operating session. Might have one train that simply runs from your main town to Staging A and back. Another that runs from the main town to Staging B and back. Then have a crew that only works the main town. Then finally have two trains do the clean up work taking cars from the main town to Staging A and to Staging B.

[Gary S]

I always appreciate the thoughts and time!

On the situation where you have loaded cars on the industry spur waiting for a day or two, and then moved to the unloading spot, couldn't you use the "do not convert" command for the cars in those spots? That way, shipit would still consider them as loads? I'm talking about your idea of setting up the spots on the spurs as different industries. When a car was set out at the "waiting" spot, it would not convert to an empty and on the next generation would be sent on to the unload spot?

For my situation, I figure the "direction" function in shipit would be used to set up a turn. I just need to start very small, get a few industries working, then slowly add more concepts.

[FCIN]

On the situation where you have loaded cars on the industry spur waiting for a day or two, and then moved to the unloading spot, couldn't you use the "do not convert" command for the cars in those spots?

Just checked and I have that "Do Not Convert" function set so I guess that makes no difference. Unless there is something that I just haven't thought of; I don't think I can get ShipIt to duplicate that type of movement - which is very commonplace at many industries. It really curled my hair when the program would place a car on hold and at the same time pull an empty that the hold car should have replaced! If I continue to try and use ShipIt, I may just have to limit that industry to a single car spot or have two car spots and just live with it. Employees at the mill will just have to increase their daily output!

For my situation, I figure the "direction" function in shipit would be used to set up a turn. I just need to start very small, get a few industries working, then slowly add more concepts.

Seems to be the best route to take with ShipIt. Start off simple, get that working and then add a little more.

There are times, when I will just pick out one car for each industry from storage and just do the simple pull one - spot one thing. But of course it's far more realistic to pull more than you spot or spot more than you pull on some sessions. I've also determined that even if an industry has 6 car spots, it's more realistic to only have cars spotted at 2 or 3 of those spots at any one time. Of course that would depend on the industry too, but at something like a distribution warehouse you aren't likely to see cars spotted at every door, every day.

[Gary S]

How about this:



Divide the spur into two industries, one for the extra spots and one for the mill. The extra spots receive "grain 1" and ship "grain 2". The extra spots receive product "grain 1" from staging. There, "grain 1" is "unloaded" and then the empty car is "loaded" with "grain 2" at the empty spot. The feed mill receives "grain 2". So, the extra spots will ship grain 2 to the feed mill.

Only problem I see is that if there are no cars on the spur, a grain shipment would first be set out at the extra spot, then in the next session would go to the mill. To remedy this, perhaps the mill should also receive "grain 1" with a higher priority than the extra spots, so if the spur was empty, grain 1 would first go to the mill. It would only go to the extra spots if the mill already had a car there.