Scratchbuilding Advice
#1
Most of you know I have been building many buildings this past year for my good friend Allan Gartner's HO empire High N' Xiety. He has asked me to do my first ever scratchbuilding project. I'ma skeer'd Eek of this one having never done it before. I ask all you mighty gurus for your advice on how to get this thing rolling. It will be a "centerpiece" of sorts as it will sit atop a mountain scene overlooking the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.
The prototype structure will be of the Wonderland Hotel located in Tennessee along the original Little River logging RR, now since abandoned. He sent me a picture posted below. All advice is welcomed....below is a list of questions that have so far popped in my head....Galen, I'm especially interested in your take, your scratchbuilding skills I've seen in your posts amaze me...
1. I have done the obligatory Google thing and found a couple of useful pictures and info...where else do you search for information?
2. Are there other resources for materials besides limited offerings of the LHS?
3. Does anyone know of a kit available that is similar to the picture below I should buy and could kitbash into the hotel?
4. Should I invest in any specialty tools to make life easier?

I hesitate to accept this mission as I may self-destruct in 5 seconds once I jump in....but I figure I will attempt scratchbuilding sooner or later, so now is as good a time as any. Looking forward to what you all have to say.....


Attached Files Image(s)
               
Cheers,
Richard

T & A Layout Build http://bigbluetrains.com/forum/viewtopic...=46&t=7191
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#2
Scubadude,

I am a long ways from being a guru, but judging from the pics the structure has clean lines( no odd ball shapes) the most challenging part would be the main roof. Looks like it would be a fun project. are you going to use wood or styrene plastic? Micro mark has both wood and plastic strips and shapes. Just my opinion as the only scratch built Item I have done so far was a flat car. There is a DVD on scratch building that may be helpful it is called SCRATCH BUILDING STRUCTURES Vol. 1 by Green Frog Productions. It is mostly railroad structures but the tecniques should be helpful.
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#3
My first advice to to make a cardboard mockup before you attempt the building. For the mockup, you can simply cut up cardboard boxes and glue with hot glue. The idea is to make sure it will fit and look good in its anticipated location, and to hopefully learn something about how you will construct the finished model.

Secondly, choose what material you will be using. Styrene is probably the easiest to work with and will result in a long-lasting, durable structure. Evergreen styrene is readily available in many shapes at your LHS. Or, you could be old-school and use basswood. Using wood really has no advantages unless you happen to like working with wood, but it may actually cost more.

No matter what material you use, a NWSL "chopper" will save you tons of time. I don't have one myself, but it's been on my list for a few years. I do know that individually measuring and cutting pieces with a hobby knife or razor saw is a pain.

Lastly, I could swear I have seen a kit that it similar from one of the laser cut wood manufacturers. If I can find it, I'll let you know.

EDIT: This may be the one I was thinking of:

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Kevin
Check out my Shapeways creations!
3-d printed items in HO/HOn3 and more!
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#4
1. If possible go there yourself in order to make photos. I sometimes had also success asking the proprietor or the architect for plans.

2. You should get everything from Walthers if your LHS doesnt have it. Check out evergreen styrene's product line.

3. It is definately more difficult to bash a kit when you go for a specific prototype. Really. Go scratchbuilding. This one is easy. It is basically a box with holes windows). Add a roof. Add the veranda and such. Done Wink
4. no.
Jens
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#5
SP1's answers to questions 1 through 4 are pretty much the same as mine. For this kind of a structure it is easier in the end to build from scratch than to kitbash. Don't be intimidated by "scratch" ... it's only a word and not a particularly dangerous one.

I offer the following as a means to get you started ...

With all the windows on each wall, cutting each one out roughly, and filing to the correct opening would take forever and leave in doubt getting them all perfectly aligned with each other.

If it were me doing this project, I would cut two pieces for each wall from 0.015” or 0.020" styrene sheet. Tape them together, end-to-end and mark off the upper and lower edges of the horizontal row of windows. Now "scribe" those two lines lightly (for now.) When scribing lines in styrene, I use the back edge ot the point of a #16 Xacto blade ... you are scoring, not cutting.

Now, rearrange the walls and tape them together top-to-bottom. Mark off the left and right vertical edges of each window. Scribe as before.

You now have two identical walls, with window locations in the exact same place on both walls. Scribe the lines again once or twice to insure they are well and truly scribed. (At this point, I used to use a soft pencil or fine ballpoint pen to mark the walls, using a numbering/lettering system so as to be able know the relationship of each piece to the others around it … I put an "X" on the window openings.)

Next, take one wall and "snap" along the two horizontally scribed lines. Then holding the middle piece, snap on the vertically scribed lines. Discard the "X" (window) pieces to the scrap box. Then using a solvent, such as lacquer thinner (some use MEK,) "painted" liberally on each "joining edge," reassemble the wall on a flat surface on top of a piece of waxed paper. "Float” a little more of the solvent along/into each of the scribed/snapped/rejoined lines. Allow the assembly to sit undisturbed for fifteen minutes or more until the solvent has evaporated and the styrene has re-solidified at the joints.

On the remaining wall section, snap on the vertically scribed lines, and then, snap ONLY the vertical pieces that have an "X" (window) in the middle of them. Once again, “X” (window) pieces go in the scrap box and the same procedure is followed to reassemble the wall with solvent on a flat surface on wax paper.

Don’t forget leave out the bottom piece where there will be a door (I forgot about doors the first time I tried this technique … I’m glad there was no one else around … I was embarrassed to be around myself … what an idiot!)

You now have two identical walls, one with horizontal joint lines and one with vertical joint lines. Place them together and using masking tape, tape along the top edge, forming a “tape hinge.” Flip the walls open, “paint the surfaces” liberally with solvent and flip the one wall over closing it on top of the other. At this point I generally “paint the solvent along each edge and allow the solvent to wick into the mating surfaces. Place a piece of waxed paper on top and carefully place a weight on the assembly until everything has set up and solidified.

That system works great for structures that will be “stucco” or maybe have a thin embossed brick sheet laminated on the outside. The window castings should just drop right in, being affixed from the inside with a little solvent applied with your trusty decent quality artists brush used only for applying solvent (I dipped the end of the handle of mine in bright orange paint to remind me … no paint on this brush!)

Since your structure has what appears to be clapboard siding, I would use the same procedure, but on only one wall, at least 0.020” thick. I would then laminate a thin piece of clapboard siding on top and be faced with cutting the window openings (again, scribed through the window openings in the “structure” wall with the back of a #16 blade, the drilling a series of holes cutting the webs in between and lightly filing to the scribed line.) It will take a while, but with the windows all located correctly (and all correctly sized) the window castings should drop into the openings perfectly.

I don’t know … every one has their own way of doing things. That’s my “wall-building from scratch” technique … for what it’s worth. I vary the process as need be to fit the situation, but in general, that’s where it is today in its evolution.

Whether you use that process or not, I hope by offering it as a potential solution to the problem before you, I have caused you to consider trying some new (to you) scratch-building techniques.

Have Fun!

Take Photos … lots of them as you progress!
biL

Lehigh Susquehanna & Western 

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~~Abraham Lincoln
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#6
I would start with drawings. If you have the prototype you can make drawings. That's the way I've started with most projects. Some drawings can serve as templates.
Here's my HowTo for my little church. And this shows how I've built my station for Diamond Valley. Hope this helps.

Wolfgang
We can switch it, day by day -
just in time - and safe
Come to us Westport Terminal RR
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#7
It seems to me that someone makes a kit very similar to that structure. I know you are looking to scratchbuild, or kitbash, someone makes a kit of a C&O Bunkhouse that, while smaller, has the same lines and features.
Don't follow me, I'm lost too.
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#8
And unless there has to be a high degree of fidelity to the original, get a box of Grandt line windows and doors that are "close enough" to avoid the painstaking process of building your own.

Andrew
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#9
biL,

Interesting! I think I read it right - you end up with a double-layer wall...? That could be especially useful in a building like this where the outside is clapboard (or novelty siding?). Is there any reason to make the "inside" windows bigger to leave room for glazing or anything like that? And what do you recommend for corner joints?

Andrew
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#10
Yes, Sir!  And you get a Gold Star for the day for the class!   Wink  Icon_lol  Icon_lol

You do end up with a double wall ... one with horizontal joints and one with vertical joints which when laminated together produces a very stong wall section.  If you are going to laminate a sheet of "novelty" siding on the outside, you can either make your laminations thinner (2 x 0.015") and then laminate your chosen siding on top or use one thick (0.040" or better) "snap" wall section to accurately locate windows and doors and then get strength and appearance from the novelty siding applied to the outside surface.

For corners, if the wall is "thick" (0.040" or better) I chamfer the edges to be joined, give the now-chamfered edges a thorough coat of solvent, clamp them up at 90 degrees, "paint" some more solvent to wick into the joint from the inside and let it sit to harden up.  If I feel the joint needs more strength, I add a piece of large square styrene stock to the interior joint, "painting" it in with solvent as before.  (wait to do that until the initial joint is solidified and you are certain it is at 90 degrees.)  I have a couple of "Assembly Aids" that I made that are squared-up pieces of Plexiglass and wood, that have substantially wide chamfers on a couple of edges, to be used as interior "clamping surfaces" while the joint solidifies.  The wide chamfer does a lot to insure that the block will not become a permanent part of the structure!

For glazing ... I save a lot of pieces of "carded POP packaging" that have large flat areas of vacuum-formed clear styrene/acetate to use as window glazing.  (Yeah, I was accused by my former wife of being a "pack rat," but why throw away valuable raw materials that you would then at some point have to spend hard-earned money to purchase essentially the same basic thing from a hobby or art supply store?*)  I carefully cut the squirreled away raw material to size, drop the glazing into the window casting from behind and affix it in place using canopy cement (one of the few things I can use the R/C helicopter-oriented LHS for ... and it dries clear) applied with a "superfine" micro-brush and wicked in along the edges of the glazing ... very carefully!.

*I grew up in the fifties and sixties as a Methodist ministers' son ... we had no money for frills.
If I wanted money to buy hobby supplies (frills) I had to earn it, and not by doing chores
around the house - that was an expected part of being responsible and doing your part
to help make the family unit operate.  No, "earning money" meant working for someone
else who would pay you.  I started caddying at the local golf course when I was eleven.  I
just carried a single bag twice each Saturday in the beginning, but when I was 12 years
old I started carrying "doubles" twice each Saturday and at $1.50 per bag for 18 holes,
the money just seened to be "rolling in!
"
biL

Lehigh Susquehanna & Western 

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~~Abraham Lincoln
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#11
scubadude Wrote:This past year, my good friend Allan Gartner has asked me to do my first ever scratchbuilding project. I'ma skeer'd Eek of this one having never done it before. I ask all you mighty gurus for your advice on how to get this thing rolling. It will be a "centerpiece" of sorts as it will sit atop a mountain scene overlooking the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.
1. I have done the obligatory Google thing and found a couple of useful pictures and info...where else do you search for information?
2. Are there other resources for materials besides limited offerings of the LHS?
3. Does anyone know of a kit available that is similar to the picture below I should buy and could kitbash into the hotel?
4. Should I invest in any specialty tools to make life easier?
I hesitate to accept this mission as I may self-destruct in 5 seconds once I jump in....but I figure I will attempt scratchbuilding sooner or later, so now is as good a time as any. Looking forward to what you all have to say.....

Q, 1. First, ask Allan if he wants an exact size model, or one "selectively compressed". If compression is to be used, work up drawings, it's no longer scratchbuilding a "Prototype" model.
Q, 2. Ask your local Hobby shop owner if they can order anything they don't carry in stock.
Q, 3. I have to go with scratchbuild....you might find that you'd have to have two or more kits for a bash, and the materials for scratch would be less expensive. There's also the labor in "unmaking" the kit, and re-arranging the parts,
and cleaning up the "joints" etc.
Q, 4. Only if the need arises for a tool you don't already have.
Look at scratchbuilding as simply building a kit, except, you have to first make the "kit parts". You might find cast metal, or plastic, windows and doors that could be used, as well as other details. Get them, before starting on the walls, decks, roofs, etc.
As ship modelers are often quoted as saying, " one does not build a ship model, one builds models of parts of a ship, and then assembles them into a " model ship ".
If you are going to build windows? Make a jig to aid assembly, and insure that each window is the same as the last. Railings, doors, and any other "multiple" pieces, the same way.
If you start by thinking ( except, you have to first make the "kit parts" ), and build a part at a time, it really is no harder than building a "craftsman" kit.
Scratchbuilding is not a bad discipline to acquire. Once there, your own layout can become a truly distinctive "place", having exactly the "character" you want it to have, be that freelance based on a "location appearance", or of a specific place on a specific railroad.
.......and, no, I am no guru, just another model builder, May fortune favor you.
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
The greatest place to live life, is on the sharp leading edge of a learning curve.
Lead me not into temptation.....I can find it myself!
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#12
Search for "HABS-HAER"

Then at that site (a fabulous site for historical buildings) search for "Wonderland Hotel".

They have a B&W picture of the main building and of one of the cabins but not much else. The data page wasn't helpful.
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#13
Well, thanks for the compliment in your original post. I'd say you already have some terrific advice. Ditto to the cardboard mockup, and to asking the right questions about compression. I'll add to that; ask if the details could be altered or substituted, like the number of window panes, siding type, etc.

I'll disagree on one point - a NWSL chopper is a valuable tool. (The naysayers are just jealous, or masochists, or both.) Tongue Invest in good tools - they can make the difference between fun and frustration or burnout. The perceived ideal of some guy sitting at the kitchen table scratchbuilding with only a single edge razor blade and a pair of tweezers is a rose-colored vision of the past. Don't be afraid to embrace new tools, even 'specialized' ones, if it makes the job easier or more fun (or less of a chore).

Are there any questions you have that weren't answered by the great suggestions above? (not that I'd have the answers, but who knows?) You've got a great prototype! What a cool model that will be!

Galen
I may not be a rivet counter, but I sure do like rivets!
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#14
Okay, having looked at the photos again, a couple more thoughts.

First, that place is probably haunted. If it ain't, it sure looks like it should be!

Secondly, a metal coffee basket #4 filter replacement would make great window screens.

Finally, I think plastruct or one of those styrene parts companies makes a really nice lattice.

This looks like a great structure for a first-time scratchbuild. As was mentioned above, it's a simple shape overall and fairly straightforward without too many exceptions or oddities.

Go for it!

Galen
I may not be a rivet counter, but I sure do like rivets!
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#15
One of the model railroaders at the club that I now belong to gave a clinic on scratch-building in styrene this past weekend, as one of the annual series of clinics presented each January and February on Saturday mornings at "The Depot."  Interestingly enough, he uses more or less the same system for building walls that I described earlier in this thread.

I bring that up here because he also was responsible for building the structures at Summit, California on the club's layout. If you scroll down to the bottom photo on that linked page and look at the building on the extreme left in the photo of Summit, you will notice the screened-in porch on the left front of the structure. For the screening the builder used silk screen material. It looks quite good ... the silk material used in making a silk screen frame is an incredibly fine weave and the material represents window screen quite well.

You might search out a silk screen shop in your area and see if they'll sell you a couple square inches. (Stan told the story of asking to buy about 9 square inches of material from a local silk screen shop. The owner wondered what he could possibly do with such a small piece of material. Stan said that after he explained what he was going to use it for, the shop owner thought is was such a cool idea that he gave Stan a yard of material, gratis!)  There are several other residential structures on the layout that have screened-in porches as a result, and there is a now a whole neighborhood of houses, being built up from drawings developed from photos of the buildings in that neighborhood in San Bernardino, California.  I will be helping on that project and will develop a thread to document the construction of one of them.

But try the silk screen silk fabric for residential screening.  I think you'll be pleased with the results.
biL

Lehigh Susquehanna & Western 

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~~Abraham Lincoln
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