Alternative to the NMRA Master Model Railroader?

[Sumpter250]

I don't understand what the problem is with helping people in this manner. So much for "teaching".

I keep the tag line in my signature, as a reminder that my advice only has value, when it is asked for, so the following, may have no value at all.

"Teaching", is sometimes more a case of asking the right questions, than of illuminating the mistakes, and offering a way to find the answers.
( Will the engine you want to use be able to get through that curve ? You can test it with a piece of flex track, to see just how tight a curve it can handle. )
The way I do something, is the right way for me. If you try it and it doesn't work for you, try something else. If it does work, you're welcome.

I also keep it to remind me that mistakes should be " learning adventures ", and to help me remember my Father's favorite "Dad-ism".
"To err is Human -- to make the same mistake twice, is criminal folly".
( and, yes, I have had to plead guilty to "criminal folly" ) :oops:

[ocalicreek]

Stein, you make some excellent points! I can appreciate the idea of KISA's. In last night's post I almost got into the reason why this idea is important to me. Today with the benefit of a better night's sleep (despite the war zone outside) I will say more.

Some of the ideas shared on this thread so far point to the reality that the internet has changed how we congregate and share ideas as modelers. How we interact on the forums is different than how we interact in person, for better or worse. I concede that many aspects are the same, as you have rightly pointed out with PM's.

A helpful idea is that of immigrants vs natives to the digital world. Immigrants are those who grew up without the internet and for them the only way to interact with other modelers was through either round-robin groups or the NMRA or the local hobby shop coffee pot. Maybe attending a show and getting involved with a club was the way to go.

Natives are those who have grown up not knowing what life was like before the internet and whose entry point into the hobby may very well be a forum such as this. While the former options for interaction are still there and doubtless will continue for another generation at least (if they ever go away entirely), the prefered means of communication for natives remains through digital media with only occasional person-to-person contact.

I submit the idea that the NMRA itself and in particular, the MMR acheivement program is an immigrant idea, something that belongs to the pre-internet era that has little traction in this new era. And just like any revolution, the new residents of the world must decide what to keep from the old world and what to construct wholly in the new. I think as the old ideas lose relevance, new ideas will emerge naturally. But I also believe leadership in the hobby (like what's going on with Model Railroad Hobbyist e-zine) is necessary to create new structures and shape new common ideas.

So some of what motivates me to think about these things is the desire to make sense of this new world of hobby-related communication and shape something new. Another aspect of why I am interested in this is that it is what I do in 'real' life, I help folks make sense of their world by taking scattered ideas and bringing them together into something coherant around a central core of beliefs (Christianity, in my particular case).

Another motivation is that I'm tired of the same old worn-out discussions about bashing the NMRA, the death of the hobby, the loss of the good ole shake-the-box kits, etc. It's time for something new and I think we at Big Blue have got something good going here that can be the nucleus for some really important, meaningful steps forward out of the old and into the new.

I'll post more later but this is a start. I've been thinking about this for a while so there's alot in there to spew forth.

Galen

[MountainMan]

A helpful idea is that of immigrants vs natives to the digital world. Immigrants are those who grew up without the internet and for them the only way to interact with other modelers was through either round-robin groups or the NMRA or the local hobby shop coffee pot. Maybe attending a show and getting involved with a club was the way to go.

Natives are those who have grown up not knowing what life was like before the internet and whose entry point into the hobby may very well be a forum such as this. While the former options for interaction are still there and doubtless will continue for another generation at least (if they ever go away entirely), the prefered means of communication for natives remains through digital media with only occasional person-to-person contact.

Galen

Where do you put the large number of us who were middle-aged adults when the internet came along? I'm in that category, and I still prefer to actually talk to people. The day we stop doing that, we can kiss our rear-ends good-bye. Communication is already a dying art, and almost entirely non-existent among the youth of today, who cannot function without a cellphone that Tweets, Twitters, Texts, Sexts and connects to the internet, usually while walking, driving or just breathing.

I doubt there is a high school kid in America who knows how to actually DO research anymore. Somehow, I don't see that as "progress", nor even beneficial.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

I keep the tag line in my signature, as a reminder that my advice only has value, when it is asked for, so the following, may have no value at all.

"Teaching", is sometimes more a case of asking the right questions, than of illuminating the mistakes, and offering a way to find the answers.
( Will the engine you want to use be able to get through that curve ? You can test it with a piece of flex track, to see just how tight a curve it can handle. )
The way I do something, is the right way for me. If you try it and it doesn't work for you, try something else. If it does work, you're welcome.

I also keep it to remind me that mistakes should be " learning adventures ", and to help me remember my Father's favorite "Dad-ism".
"To err is Human -- to make the same mistake twice, is criminal folly".
( and, yes, I have had to plead guilty to "criminal folly" ) :oops:

I think i can see what you're saying, i'm just not used to it. I'm a scientist, when i see something is up, i tend to use the quick concise langague that they have me use in the lab to write about protocols and things. I assume the radius listed on the box or the instructions is accurate, if not slightly too tight. Therefore, i would just stick to the facts- "Your curves are X inches, your locomotive's minimum radius is Y inches, so you will need larger radius curves".

It would be difficult for me to think to steer someone to that conclusion with questions when I already have the answer and the evidence to back it up. However, i'll definitely add this to my list of strategies. Your advice certainly has value with me, and i'm not at all opposed to (in fact, i almost prefer) people giving me direct advice on most matters. At the very least i'll consider what i'm told, and if i choose not to go that route, I often reflect on how things may have been different if i had went the other way.

These sorts of things will probably continue to drive me nuts Track geometry and wheel bases are not a matter of opinion, they are existing, solid physical constants . Next time that situation pops up, though, i'll make sure to try and lead them there before I type up a lab report response . Thanks a bunch!

[ocalicreek]

A helpful idea is that of immigrants vs natives to the digital world. Immigrants are those who grew up without the internet and for them the only way to interact with other modelers was through either round-robin groups or the NMRA or the local hobby shop coffee pot. Maybe attending a show and getting involved with a club was the way to go.

Natives are those who have grown up not knowing what life was like before the internet and whose entry point into the hobby may very well be a forum such as this. While the former options for interaction are still there and doubtless will continue for another generation at least (if they ever go away entirely), the prefered means of communication for natives remains through digital media with only occasional person-to-person contact.

Galen

Where do you put the large number of us who were middle-aged adults when the internet came along? I'm in that category, and I still prefer to actually talk to people. The day we stop doing that, we can kiss our rear-ends good-bye. Communication is already a dying art, and almost entirely non-existent among the youth of today, who cannot function without a cellphone that Tweets, Twitters, Texts, Sexts and connects to the internet, usually while walking, driving or just breathing.

I doubt there is a high school kid in America who knows how to actually DO research anymore. Somehow, I don't see that as "progress", nor even beneficial.

The rest of 'us', being that I was born in '75 and was already in college when the internet began to really take off beyond an academic exercise among universities - into the realm of entertainment and social communications - are immigrants. We have arrived on the foreign shore and learned the language but it is not our first language, whereas those natives born since the internet exploded on the scene have never known and will probably never know any different.

I have to disagree about research, however. Actually the opposite is the case. It's because of the internet that schools are requiring students to learn even more rigorous methods of research to compensate for the confusion the internet causes. Teachers generally won't accept papers with websites listed unless they are primary sources - papers published directly online or paralleled in a print journal. And too many conflicting opinions online forces a person to learn how to discern what is right and what has been fabricated or embellished.

Galen

[Green_Elite_Cab]

A helpful idea is that of immigrants vs natives to the digital world. Immigrants are those who grew up without the internet and for them the only way to interact with other modelers was through either round-robin groups or the NMRA or the local hobby shop coffee pot. Maybe attending a show and getting involved with a club was the way to go.

Natives are those who have grown up not knowing what life was like before the internet and whose entry point into the hobby may very well be a forum such as this. While the former options for interaction are still there and doubtless will continue for another generation at least (if they ever go away entirely), the prefered means of communication for natives remains through digital media with only occasional person-to-person contact.

Actually, I think the internet has done the exact opposite. The internet has put me in touch with more people in person as far as the hobby goes than i can imagine. I've met many members of this forum, either at visits to hobby shops, prototype meets, or even the Gauge trip to steamtown (wish there could be another! I have one idea for any Philly area members in September). In fact, just by being on the internet, i've managed to attract like minded people to my model railroad club.

While many do use the texting and internet communications, i think it is just the necessisty of a busy life and likely large distances between us. face-to-face contact is difficult when many people we meet on the internet are over an hour away and have busy schedules. Indeed, it is awkward to meet people straight off the internet. Its happened to me by surprise once and i was alittle frightened myself, and i think that anxiety prevents face-to-face meetings.

I submit the idea that the NMRA itself and in particular, the MMR acheivement program is an immigrant idea, something that belongs to the pre-internet era that has little traction in this new era. And just like any revolution, the new residents of the world must decide what to keep from the old world and what to construct wholly in the new. I think as the old ideas lose relevance, new ideas will emerge naturally. But I also believe leadership in the hobby (like what's going on with Model Railroad Hobbyist e-zine) is necessary to create new structures and shape new common ideas.

Galen

I don't think Achievement programs are so "pre-internet" as you thought!

Achievements have now become the "New" way things are done. Video games like Halo had little "medals" you earned by doing particular things (finding all hidden things, completing the game on increasingly harder difficulties, etc). When Xbox Live was relaunched after Xbox 360, "Achievements" in games were one of the controversial new things they added. The idea was that it would encourage people to play the games. Most people thought it was a silly gimmick, but boy did it work! players go ballistic over them, and it has generated much fun. Competing consoles quickly came up with similar ideas, with Sony creating "Trophies".

Achievements range from beating a game on its most difficult settings, to exploring the hidden corners of a level, or doing something unusual or requiring skill.

While many of you have may not have ever picked up an Xbox controller, the concept is still very much alive and well and a regular part of daily life. I definitely think it can be applied model railroading, but perhaps in a different way. Achievements don't have to be big, they can be small. It can be as easy as "weather a boxcar" or as challenging as "scratchbuild a steam engine". Just like on xbox live, you can display the last few achievements you got in your profile and the "signature" area on your posts. These don't necessarily have to denote that one is a master of model railroading, but simply that one has accomplished these things.

Ultimately, i look at achievements like this-

It is not the destination, its the Journey!

The little tile that goes next to your name is just a reminder of that memmorable journey.

[ocalicreek]

Actually, I think the internet has done the exact opposite. The internet has put me in touch with more people in person as far as the hobby goes than i can imagine. I've met many members of this forum, either at visits to hobby shops, prototype meets, or even the Gauge trip to steamtown (wish there could be another! I have one idea for any Philly area members in September). In fact, just by being on the internet, i've managed to attract like minded people to my model railroad club.

But you have said it yourself - 'just by being on the internet'. That's the new starting point. The local paper, the yellow pages, even flyers at hobby shops are no longer the dominant media for natives. Many immigrants have learned the value of this source as well. I don't watch the news anymore - not that I spent a great deal of time watching it before the internet came along. But if I want information I'll read a news outlet online or go to a niche like a forum or newsgroup around that particular interest to learn more. I still read the Sunday paper but only a few pages deep before I work the Sudoku - and only because my wife takes the paper in order to get the coupons! hock:

While there may be other contemporary acheivement programs out there, the NMRA's was developed well before the internet came into being, if I recall. It's not a sign on and play a video game process either, but a longer process that should take a few years to acheive. Apples & oranges.


Galen

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Where do you put the large number of us who were middle-aged adults when the internet came along? I'm in that category, and I still prefer to actually talk to people. The day we stop doing that, we can kiss our rear-ends good-bye. Communication is already a dying art, and almost entirely non-existent among the youth of today, who cannot function without a cellphone that Tweets, Twitters, Texts, Sexts and connects to the internet, usually while walking, driving or just breathing.

I doubt there is a high school kid in America who knows how to actually DO research anymore. Somehow, I don't see that as "progress", nor even beneficial.

Well, I'm only out of highschool for three years now, and i still have siblings in High school. While I know there are plenty of dummies out there, we were made to do large research projects. At least one or two books were usually required. Most other sources had to be Peer-reviewed, either from physical journals or online database subscriptions with peer-reviewed articles. Wikipedia and any generic website are not accepted.

I would say you are underestimating the average student, but then again i've always been singled out for researching ability ( though i wish i could retain "useful" information. Knowing the different kinds of rocks, species of bugs, or identifying features that differentiate one SW from another don't necessarily help with life).

That said, i'm also a stickler for accurate information, and we were forced to review our fellow student's research projects. I very rarely found anyone's sources to be illegitmate, even if i did not agree with what was being said. I've only gotten worse now that i've been in college for a few years, if you think i'm bad with giving advice on model railroading, I get much worse when i see inconsistencies in the lab, where precision is key.

Speaking of communicating, I haven't had any issue with communicating at all. My cell phone is just "new" enough to not look outdated. (I think its gotta be 6 or 7 years old now). I only text when it is reasonable to do so (like quick messages such as "i'm going to be late/early"). texting is also more private. Not to mention that the "internet shorthand" actually has a purpose. If you have a lot to say, it is inconvenient to send several messages. If you have to shorten "you" to "U" for the sake of fitting within the character limitations of a message (you can only put so many letters in a message), than so be it. As long as you don't type and write like that on a regular basis, then there is no problem.

In both the cases of research and communications, i don't think its so much that younger people can't do those things, as it is that its evolved to flow on a level that the "immigrants" unfamiliar or uncomfortable with.

thats just my off-topic rant on the subject.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

But you have said it yourself - 'just by being on the internet'. That's the new starting point. The local paper, the yellow pages, even flyers at hobby shops are no longer the dominant media for natives. Many immigrants have learned the value of this source as well. I don't watch the news anymore - not that I spent a great deal of time watching it before the internet came along. But if I want information I'll read a news outlet online or go to a niche like a forum or newsgroup around that particular interest to learn more. I still read the Sunday paper but only a few pages deep before I work the Sudoku - and only because my wife takes the paper in order to get the coupons! hock:

I suppose, but i thought your point was that people are only occaisionally getting in touch, which is not the case. the face to face is still happening, its just that you read the flyer on a website instead of picking it up at a hobby shop.

If anything, i'd argue that the death of hobby shops at the hands of internet suppliers is doing more damage to the way modelers meet than they way people communicate with the internet. There are physically less places for fellow modelers to meet and congregate.

whats more, today's hectic lifestyles of constant movement does more to separate people than any preference for the impersonal anonymous environment of the internet. One of my good friends has to take a night job, so i don't see him down at the railroad club all that often, or at any other time for that matter. People don't have time to work on this stuff anymore, or at the very least they don't percieve they have the time. At the rate i'm going, its going to take me months to complete projects that used to take only a week or so when I had more time as a teenager.

While there may be other contemporary acheivement programs out there, the NMRA's was developed well before the internet came into being, if I recall. It's not a sign on and play a video game process either, but a longer process that should take a few years to acheive. Apples & oranges.

I wouldn't necessarily say game and model railroad achievements are apples and oranges either, I would actually say that they are almost the same apart from the fact that one is a physical thing that requires a little more sophistication and the other virtual. but i digress.

The main point is that the internet and digital media are not necessarily making an achievement program obsolete. Its all based on the willingness of us as model railroaders to participate in it or not. This decision is not based in digital media, but in the personal feelings of people.

I strongly suspect that for every "extroverted" model railroader of the "Pre-internet era", you'll have several more who probably just kept to themselves, happy with their basement empire, who never joined the NMRA and were never interested in achievement programs (rather, i suspect the NMRA attracted the types who saw value in such a program).

All the internet did was reveal the thoughts of people across the globe, extending our awareness beyond our immeadiate area and to people we would be otherwise unable to reach.

You're probably right that the hobby is going to be making big changes to take full advantage of these new connections, but i think achievements will have their place, and that those who want to play the model railroad achievement game will. There is no reason it cannot adapt to today's needs.

[ocalicreek]

The main point is that the internet and digital media are not necessarily making an achievement program obsolete. Its all based on the willingness of us as model railroaders to participate in it or not. This decision is not based in digital media, but in the personal feelings of people.

I strongly suspect that for every "extroverted" model railroader of the "Pre-internet era", you'll have several more who probably just kept to themselves, happy with their basement empire, who never joined the NMRA and were never interested in achievement programs (rather, i suspect the NMRA attracted the types who saw value in such a program).

All the internet did was reveal the thoughts of people across the globe, extending our awareness beyond our immeadiate area and to people we would be otherwise unable to reach.

You're probably right that the hobby is going to be making big changes to take full advantage of these new connections, but i think achievements will have their place, and that those who want to play the model railroad achievement game will. There is no reason it cannot adapt to today's needs.

Yes, this is very much along the lines of what I'm thinking. In the same way we have folks who 'lurk' on forums that may be first-rate modelers who, for whatever reason, choose only to read and watch and remain on the sidelines of the forum, and that's okay.

I don't think it's feasible to change the AP or MMR program to reflect what changes have occured in this new digital era. Some things just have to go away as others rise to replace them. There will always be some sort of AP whether or not the NMRA has a hand in it. Perhaps it will arise out of discussions like this one!

We have a saying in the church about doing new things for new people. The big latin phrase is 'ecclesia semper reformanda', that is, the church always reforming. Culture goes through these shifts and business even more rapidly, I'd wager.

And to borrow another example from my professional life, I remember a conversation I had with a fellow after an outreach event. He and I handed out hot cider and candy canes with an invitation to our Christmas worship services. This was a few years back when my wife and I were serving a small, struggling church in SoCal. He asked if I thought our event was successful. I said I'd have to wait and see how many came on Christmas Eve as a result of our event. He replied that already he knew it was Not a success, simply because out of the whole church (30 or so folks) he and I were the only ones that showed up to the outreach event. His definition of success was different than mine and mine has been like his ever since. Sometimes acheivement isn't measured by meeting numeric goals but by the collaboration, the participation in the journey. I think we need both. This is why, I believe, some of the AP areas are related to group events, not just solitary work. You don't dispatch a railroad all by yourself, or write articles for nobody to read.


Okay...plenty to chew on tonight...will think/read/converse/write more tomorrow. Thank you to everyone for participating in this conversation.


Galen

[steinjr]

Natives are those who have grown up not knowing what life was like before the internet and whose entry point into the hobby may very well be a forum such as this. While the former options for interaction are still there and doubtless will continue for another generation at least (if they ever go away entirely), the prefered means of communication for natives remains through digital media with only occasional person-to-person contact.

I am 10 years older than you - born in 1965. In a country where TV was just starting to take off in the 1960s. Throughout my childhood we had only one TV channel - we didn't get more channels until the early 1980s (although some people living close to the border of Sweden could put up a big antenna and catch a couple of Swedish channels in the 1970s).

The year "September never ended" (i.e. the year when the influx of new people to the Internet was not just limited to University students who had learned the ropes by the end of September - but new people started getting online all the time) was 18 years ago.

Even so, Internet penetration into households did not take off that suddenly. Having Internet at home is something which has taken off during the last 10 years or so - currently about 75% of US households have Internet access - which is about three times the rate about 10 years.

So it is the generation which follows ours - people who still are children now, who will grow up with the Net always having been there.


Stein

[pgandw]

I submit the idea that the NMRA itself and in particular, the MMR acheivement program is an immigrant idea, something that belongs to the pre-internet era that has little traction in this new era. And just like any revolution, the new residents of the world must decide what to keep from the old world and what to construct wholly in the new. I think as the old ideas lose relevance, new ideas will emerge naturally. But I also believe leadership in the hobby (like what's going on with Model Railroad Hobbyist e-zine) is necessary to create new structures and shape new common ideas.

I realize that the following is not a fashionable world-view among the “natives”, to use your phrase. But looked at from a black box line diagram perspective, the Internet does not and did not change the end points of most human processes. The Internet did not add new goals or answer any basic human needs or wants. From a black box line drawing perspective, the Internet is simply a new medium through which basic, existing human processes can be performed – sometimes much more efficiently, and sometimes less efficiently than the “old” ways. By changing the efficiency or scale of the process, the Internet does change the relative value of activities and processes, but it doesn’t change the end points.

E-mail and Twitter are 2 obvious examples. E-mail has replaced letter writing because it has quicker delivery, and can be much more easily dispatched to multiple addressees. It has the same limitations in communicating the depth of human experience as letter writing does or did. E-mail can be archived, just as business letters and contracts are/used to be. Therefore, e-mail is rapidly replacing business letters and contracts as a means of documenting agreements and providing direction. E-mail hasn’t changed the basic needs; it’s just a more efficient process for accomplishing the same end.

Twitter at its essence is no different than the hand-written notes we used to pass among ourselves in grade and high school. Because of the Internet distribution, Tweets are even more likely to fall into hands we didn’t intend then the paper notes were. Again, the reason for the existence of the notes or Tweets hasn’t changed, just the process for getting them from one person to another.

The basic functions of Facebook and LinkedIn used to be handled by various published yearbooks and “Who’s Who” in various fields. Desperate recruiters used to paw through the books to find candidates for whatever cause. The books would be used to look up speakers or leaders in a field. Publishers of the books would solicit folks to pay to have their name, photo, and other info included. Not all that much different from today, except that you receive advertising instead of paying to have your information published.

Even DCC is in essence another (very good) attempt at command control. DCC has the same train engineer operations perspective as all command control systems. At its core, DCC is a DC PWM throttle installed in the engine instead of in the power pack. You could mount the decoder under the layout and feed the motor outputs to conventional DC wiring, and it would work just fine as another DC throttle. When the decoder throttle is mounted in the locomotive, the control signal is sent to the decoder via an individually addressable comms link, which bypasses the DC block assignments.

Back to the NMRA MMR program – you are looking for an alternative, for not-very-well defined reasons. From the thread, the basic definition for an MMR keeps coming back to skills in a variety of aspects of model railroading, demonstrated to others through craftsmanship. Some –to-many would include a service component – mentoring, teaching, or giving back to the hobby in some way.

Unless you turn to self-reporting (which is hardly demonstrated craftsmanship), it’s hard to see where the basic structure of the NMRA MMR program fails in its mission. You can quibble with the particulars of the required craftsmanship demonstrations – such as having to build your own structure windows to get scratchbuild points or hand lay track - but that is tinkering around the edges, not the basic structure.

Even if you succeed in setting up an alternative MMR program, you will run into the same objections:
• It’s a hobby, I don’t want to have my craftsmanship judged by others.
• I don’t like the people doing the judging, or I don’t like the criteria they used to judge.
• I don’t think the right skill sets are being emphasized by the structure.

No matter what structure you try, you come back to two bottom lines (not all that different from Christianity):
• Either you set your own rules and values, or you submit to a set of rules and values outside yourself. If you are setting your own rules and values, the concept of MMR is meaningless.
• For an outside set of rules, human nature is to want them altered to favor one’s self, and one’s own inherent strengths and desires.

My thoughts are based on my experiences with the Boy Scouts, an organization that is structured to promote growth of the individual through achievement programs. Coaching youth sports also teaches many of the same lessons.

As always, my thoughts, your choices
Fred W

[torikoos]

I'm not sure. I quite like the set up the NMRA has. It may need a little bit of updating , although I'm not sure myself which area really need this.
I do have the intention to get a few merit awards etc, and perhaps get the MMR title too in time, but it is certainly not a goal for me. I just want to have fun with the hobby. From time to time, I may have a model or project judged, purely to have some sort of measure of my own skill, and learn something through constructive comments I may receive. It certainly would not be for 'bragging rights' in my case. Just my thoughts.

Koos

[ocalicreek]

The year "September never ended"

- interesting! Another benefit of the net - international correspondance, but sharing new perspectives and raising the bar on modeling.

Even if you succeed in setting up an alternative MMR program, you will run into the same objections:
• It’s a hobby, I don’t want to have my craftsmanship judged by others.
• I don’t like the people doing the judging, or I don’t like the criteria they used to judge.
• I don’t think the right skill sets are being emphasized by the structure.

Yep. All of these came up gradually in the first page of this very thread, interestingly enough. Good thoughts, Fred.

Maybe this is boiling down to the general concept of how the internet affects acheivement programs?

Galen

[dave1905]

Fred W has summed it up very eloquently.