Small commuter focused layout?
#1
Hey guys,

This is partially me getting my thoughts down, but I would definitely love some input

Even though I won't be building it soon, I've come to terms with the fact that i've been trying to put to much on too little space. I'm starting a new look into a hypothetical future layout that fits within the confines of a 9x11 area.

Basically, i'm looking for a small layout that will let me model some commuter runs with reasonable frequency (and different consists), and allow for a small amount of local freight operations. my mind is currently seeing one 4' long station platform and a single industrial area, with staging at one end or the other. The longest commuter trains would be 4 cars long (abou 4 real feet).

though i'm not entirely sure what exact railroad i want to model, it shouldn't have a major effect on the track plan, apart from maybe some different scenery.

I don't have any specific track plan ideas of my own right now, but i'm still doodling. Any ideas would be great.


Givens and Druthers

Scale: HO
Gauge: Standard

Prototype: Conrail (freight and contracted Commuter operations)

Era: 1979
Region: Northern New Jersey/Philadelphia ***
Railroad: freelanced

Space:

Hypothetical 9x11 empty space.

Governing Rolling Stock: GG1s, 85' commuter cars (includes two car "married pairs", 190'). Atleast 30' scale foot height clearance for catenary

Relative Emphasis:

|______________________________V_______________|
Track/Operation .................................................. ..Scenic realism
|__________V___________________________________|
Mainline Running .................................................. ........ Switching

Operation Priorities: (rearrange as required)

1. Main-Line Passenger Train Operation
2. Local Freight Operations
3. Passenger Train Switching
4. Long Freight Train Operations

Typical operating Crew: Me
Modeling New Jersey Under the Wire 1978-1979.  
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#2
Popcornbeer All right I'm ready to watch the build...
 My other car is a locomotive, ARHS restoration crew  
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#3
I'm not sure why you're determined on a rectangular space. When I finally moved out of my parents' place, I had an apartment with what was basically a smallish walk-in closet. I didn't have all that big a wardrobe, and there was a second closet, so you can figure out how my mind worked. I wound up with a shelf layout on a piece of 1x8 on shelf brackets.

It seems to me that when you're young and pushing on the hobby, you aren't going to wind up with anything close to what you can do when you're ten years older and making halfway decent money with more of a life. I don't think there's a whole lot of reason to try to build an empire in 4x8, 9x11, or whatever. I know you're thinking about the Northeast Corridor or whatever, but that's not a reasonable expectation for someone just starting out.

Especially at the relative age where I think you are -- early 20s -- and living at home, I would be doing things with a scope of maybe one or two years out, since you really don't know where the economy and careers are going to take you. 9x11 at your parents' place (which I assume is where you're scoping things out) is assuming a whole lot. I built something in my parents' basement, but then my parents had to sell their place.

In addition, why not assess your own current talents and interests? My impression is that you're a pretty capable scratchbuilder and customizer of rolling stock. Why not spend your scarce time on something like that, and not put too much effort into benchwork that's gonna go to the landfill at a certain point in the not too distant future?

You can do push-pull and limited freight switching on a shelf layout. Heck, even Amtrak switching. Just my thoughts.
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#4
jwb Wrote:I'm not sure why you're determined on a rectangular space. When I finally moved out of my parents' place, I had an apartment with what was basically a smallish walk-in closet. I didn't have all that big a wardrobe, and there was a second closet, so you can figure out how my mind worked. I wound up with a shelf layout on a piece of 1x8 on shelf brackets.

It seems to me that when you're young and pushing on the hobby, you aren't going to wind up with anything close to what you can do when you're ten years older and making halfway decent money with more of a life. I don't think there's a whole lot of reason to try to build an empire in 4x8, 9x11, or whatever. I know you're thinking about the Northeast Corridor or whatever, but that's not a reasonable expectation for someone just starting out.

Well, this is all just hypothetical, I know I won't even have the space to build anything for another three or four years, and thats being optimistic. I certainly won't be building anything new as long as i'm still at home.

This is for me, just something to occupy my mind with, and a way to avoid future mistakes. I started out when I was 14, and i picked up the Model Railroader book "From Set to Scenery", and built that layout, assuming it would work since it was in a published book. Unfortuneately, that layout wasn't really what i was looking for, even from the very beginning.

In short, this is all just for fun. They won't be serious plans until many moons from now Thumbsup

Quote:Especially at the relative age where I think you are -- early 20s -- and living at home, I would be doing things with a scope of maybe one or two years out, since you really don't know where the economy and careers are going to take you. 9x11 at your parents' place (which I assume is where you're scoping things out) is assuming a whole lot. I built something in my parents' basement, but then my parents had to sell their place.

In addition, why not assess your own current talents and interests? My impression is that you're a pretty capable scratchbuilder and customizer of rolling stock. Why not spend your scarce time on something like that, and not put too much effort into benchwork that's gonna go to the landfill at a certain point in the not too distant future?

You can do push-pull and limited freight switching on a shelf layout. Heck, even Amtrak switching. Just my thoughts.

That is my current plan (to build my kits and such). I'm thinking of making one or two small display modules (2x4 sheets, since thats the standard size), If i have the time. They will be mostly something for me to practice assembling catenary and for me to take more realistic photographs with. I have enough junk left over from old projects and buildings that used to be on my layout that I could easily populate one module with enough stuff to pass for interesting.

I certainly have no plans to be spending way to much of my money on new benchwork (have plenty of spare wood in my basement from my dad's projects that i can use).

Like i said, the Givens and Druthers above are all hypothetical, just trying to come up with a reasonable way to operate trains the way i wish to some day, instead of just stumbling into it.
Modeling New Jersey Under the Wire 1978-1979.  
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#5
Well I have two suggestions. One when you do build do it in sections that can be taken apart and reassembled for easy moving. At your age you will probably have a dozen moves before you retire. My other thought with all you want to do I think N would be a better scale. I agree with the previous poster that a shelf layout (which could be incorperated into a larger layout later) would be a good way to hone your scenery/wiring/ect. skills in the meantime and have some fun while doing it.
Mike

Sent from my pocket calculator using two tin cans and a string
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#6
Dioramas, modules -- feh! I'd be thinking in terms of a 1x8 plank 7 or 8 feet long. (The one I did, I cut the recess holes for Peco switch machines with an X-Acto blade. No power tools, but it worked.) The thing about that is you can certainly incorporate it into the "serious" layout later.
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#7
Would something like this work(Except with commuter trains)?
http://hogrr.blogspot.com/2009/11/welcom...ayout.html
Justin Miller
Modeling the Lebanon Industrial Railway (LIRY)
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#8
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:Hey guys,

Basically, i'm looking for a small layout that will let me model some commuter runs with reasonable frequency (and different consists), and allow for a small amount of local freight operations. my mind is currently seeing one 4' long station platform and a single industrial area, with staging at one end or the other. The longest commuter trains would be 4 cars long (abou 4 real feet).

Scale: HO
Hypothetical 9x11 empty space.
Governing Rolling Stock: GG1s, 85' commuter cars (includes two car "married pairs", 190'). Atleast 30' scale foot height clearance for catenary

Operation Priorities: (rearrange as required)

1. Main-Line Passenger Train Operation
2. Local Freight Operations
3. Passenger Train Switching
4. Long Freight Train Operations

Typical operating Crew: Me

Mmm -

In a first home, and in a situation where there might be frequent moves of the next few years, we are probably talking not a room filling layout, but maybe more of a fairly movable shelf layout on 2-3 walls of a bedroom sized room ?

The desire that is hardest to fullfill in H0 scale is the commuter runs, and the long freight train operations.

It would be fairly easy (in principle) to model a little bit of a run, from staging, past a couple of industries and into one passenger station or terminal, with the rest of the world being represented by staging - say 10 feet of staging and 10 feet of industries the passenger trains will pass, and 10 feet of terminal area - of which about 4-5 feet is the platform length. Several platforms for arriving trains, a station switcher, maybe room for a little coach yard and some engine maintenance?

You have significant investments in H0 scale equipment, so I guess going N scale is out of the question?

Smile,
Stein
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#9
Think "dominoes." I would make them no bigger than 2'x4.' You won't have room for anything more than an industrial switching layout on two dominoes, and perhaps a commuter line row running through the section, but it will be easy to move. Two of the dominoes that are designed to stack together with "plate" made of plywood to keep the scenery from being damaged when they are bolted together would provide a "box" that would store in a 2'x2'x4' space. It gives you something to play with now and, can be incorporated into a larger empire later when you move.
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#10
By the way, GEC, have you looked at Peter Feigenbaum's work? You can find some of it at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vestaldesign.com/projects/modelrr/">http://www.vestaldesign.com/projects/modelrr/</a><!-- m --> and <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://sweet-station.com/blog/2008/07/peter-feigenbaum/">http://sweet-station.com/blog/2008/07/peter-feigenbaum/</a><!-- m -->

I think there's some similarity here in what both of you are (or in Peter's case, were) trying to accomplish. He built a layout in his parents' basement while still in high school that showed enormous talent, as you can see in the links. Then he went off to Yale (and model trains in the Ivy League is sort of the-thing-which-is-not) and studied architecture, and now works at an architectural firm and has a rock n roll band. The problem is that he decided (he told me in an e-mail) that basically those things didn't mix with model trains, so he's more or less left the hobby. I think when I e-mailed him earlier this year, it reminded him that he had a web site for his teenage layout, and he took it down. But you can still find his stuff on the web.

He took structures off his layout and assembled them into art "installations" which he displayed in New York galleries. Not every modeler is going to do this, but it's certainly an example of how layout components built when you're living at home can be re-used later. It's also an example of how smaller layout components can be taken outdoors for photography, which is much easier there.

Come to think of it, here's a scene on my layout that was directly inspired by Peter Feigenbaum's work:

[albumimg]4088[/albumimg]

I still need to add graffiti to the building.
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#11
jwb Wrote:[albumimg]4088[/albumimg]

With the exception of the loco, that looks a lot like the Long Island Distress...uhhhh, Expressway, the big L.I.E. ! Big Grin Big Grin
On the other hand, the car is in too good a shape for the L.I.E. . Icon_twisted Icon_twisted
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
The greatest place to live life, is on the sharp leading edge of a learning curve.
Lead me not into temptation.....I can find it myself!
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#12
Heck, check those Feigenbaum sites. One lesson he taught me is this is a good thing to do with those el cheapo Bachmann cars!
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#13
Sumpter250 Wrote:
jwb Wrote:[albumimg]4088[/albumimg]

With the exception of the loco, that looks a lot like the Long Island Distress...uhhhh, Expressway, the big L.I.E. ! Big Grin Big Grin
On the other hand, the car is in too good a shape for the L.I.E. . Icon_twisted Icon_twisted

It fits on the world's largest parking lot aka the LIE.
Mike Kieran
Port Able Lines

" If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be " - Yogi Berra.
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#14
Btw - just to illustrate how it would be possible to create the http://illusion of fairly busy commuter station in fairly little space, while using several different sets of passenger trains - have a look at the 1 x 4 foot British layout "Sutton Road" by Bob Hughes, from Sandbach, Cheshire: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4293

The operating scheme is described on the late Carl Arendt's web site : http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page67/index.html#sutton

You could feed the platform tracks from a traverser (vertical or horizontal) just beyond the modeled scene. Maybe something similar to this:

[Image: sutton-terminal.jpg]

Smile,
Stein
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#15
So many responses! My posts were beginning to look crammed like the LIE (i've also suffered that traffic congestion several times).

Anyways, on a point-by-point basis

Why not N Scale?

It is not just that I have invested much in HO rolling stock, but its also the time i've invested researching the various lines through out NJ and some of the surrounding areas in Philadelphia and such. There are very few N-scale models of NJ area prototypes. As has been pointed out in other threads, there are almost no N scale electrics. Not to mention that catenary would be beyond my capacity for patience!

What configuration? Shelf, Plank, Domino?

At the moment, Russ's 2X4 Domino seems to be the best fit for my space. a pair of 2x4s can handle quite a bit of railroad. Layouts similar to Peter Feigenbaum's are pretty close to what I have in mind (Very cool layout, btw. Its a shame he didn't stick with the hobby!).

One thing is for certain though, except for perhaps my relatively short PATCO train, 8 feet is to short to operate a passenger train, especially since many are of the "2 car, 1 unit" married pair vareity, roughtly 2' long. Any commuter tracks (the ultimate goal for the new sections) will there fore have to be of the non-operating display kind until they can be hooked into a larger layout.

Should the Layout be part of a larger unbuilt plan, a nucleus for a future layout, or a stand-alone entity?

Right now, I'm leaning towards the last option. Because future space requirements are unknown, it can be hard to say what could be, and hard to plan one way or another for that.

While browsing through my Conrail ZTS charts, I've found a section of the Northeast Corridor that might work.

A track known as the Delco Lead runs from New Brunswick to Dean, NJ, just outside of the catenary poles on the western side of the NEC. It is a single track with plenty of industrial spurs facing in either direction, including large Delco plants through out, as well as a large Johnson & Johnson facility. because it does not feature a run around, a caboose may be present for long back up moves (or perhaps even back to back locomotives?)

In particular, a large Delco facility near New Brunswick has caught my eye. Selectively compressed, it could make an interesting prototype. It includes two spurs, one leads into the main building, and another spure along a shack that unloads covered hoppers. Both of these spurs are also paralell with the NEC and the Delco lead (many others branch off perpendicular to the Delco lead, inconvenient for skinny spaces). There are a few other industries that look convenient to model (though not as interesting) immeadiately south of the Delco plant.

I could simply model a short section of the 4 track NEC (which is straight as an arrow and features no switches or strange catenary situations) in the fore ground, with the Delco Lead running roughly down the middle of the combing 2x8 dominoes, with the spurs branching off into the "back".

Here is a photo from Historic Aerials (link provided by the website's share function, so it is legitimate for posting despite watermarks).

You can see the plant and some hoppers in 1979. A northbound freight headed by a pair of E44s (in blue and black) is currently rolling past. by clicking the link below, it will take you directly to Historic Aerial's website and this location/year.

-link- <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=8E-06&lat=40.4724367208325&lon=-74.4725391112678&year=1979">http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials. ... &year=1979</a><!-- m -->

[Image: img-server.php?op=fetchHistoricPhotograp...stamp=true]

The plant still stands today with most of the buildings intact, though one of the rail sidings appears out of service. Bing Birds Eye View

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qrbv8x8stj5y&lvl=18.295443130812923&dir=271.5495984980129&sty=b&form=LMLTCC">http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qrbv8x ... orm=LMLTCC</a><!-- m -->

I may still be thinking ambitiously, but the way I figure it, this will let me model the widest possible variety of equipment in once spot.

jwb Wrote:Dioramas, modules -- feh! I'd be thinking in terms of a 1x8 plank 7 or 8 feet long. (The one I did, I cut the recess holes for Peco switch machines with an X-Acto blade. No power tools, but it worked.) The thing about that is you can certainly incorporate it into the "serious" layout later.

LOL, you are unstoppable! I can certainly relate. for a long time I did not have a dremel tool, so I cut everything with hacksaws, razor saws, and ground things down with files and sanding blocks. modifying Athearn frames was "fun".
Modeling New Jersey Under the Wire 1978-1979.  
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