To rebuild or not to rebuild?

[RobertInOntario]

In 2005, I was rushed when I first designed and laid the track for my first layout, which is 4x6. Ever since, I've been solving (fairly successfully) the errors in my track work -- mostly uneven roadbed (especially around switches) or poorly joined flex-track. My layout board is also hopelessly warped and that, of course, causes problems. I'm not sure what can be done now to correct it (I've thought about using clamps to try to straighten it!) and I don't have much space for elaborate, heavy-duty benchwork. Its current benchwork (if you can call it that) is basically a sheet of plywood with a very weak/light frame under it.

I just recently started building a very small 3x4 HO layout using 15"R curves. I can still run most of my stock on it. I have one 4-6-0 and one long Pacific that can't cope with the tight curves -- everything else seems to run OK, even my CNR Hudson and my other (shorter) Pacifics.

At any rate, the 3x4 layout is upstaging the larger one because its trackwork in laid on a very flat surface. I hardly ever have derailments on it and my trains run very smoothly. Also, the scenery is looking really good as well. IMHO, I think my trackwork and scenery skills are much better now than they were in 2005 when I started on the larger layout.

So my question is: Do I scrap the first layout and expand the newer one? It's a tough decision as I've spent a fair bit of time and money on the first one.

Cheers,
Rob

[jim currie]

i wouldn't scrap it, but you could do a major rebuild using most of your old components.
Jim

[Trucklover]

I would start all over on the old layout, thats just what i would do though. From what you said about the old layouts benchwork and how it is bowed and tweaked, i would re-build a new one and then re-design the layout, this time with your improved skills in trackwork and scenery

[Charlie B]

Robert, I have built 9 layouts and I will soon be starting number 10. Take lots of pictures, for memory's sake, Salvage everything (I mean even rail that is pulled from the ties), and start over. You are enjoying a small layout because it runs better and ignoring the old one anyway, so put the knowledge you have gained to work and go to it.
It is always nice if you can salvage a building or a small area of scenery in tact, but you should have no regrets about starting over.
Charlie

[RobertInOntario]

Thanks for your feedback here! I'm still weighing my options. My kids would be sad to see the old layout "go" and my wife would probably roll her eyes!

I might either try to fix the old layout again, or possibly set it aside while expanding the newer one.

As I said, I'm still deciding and I will re-read the replies posted here.

Thanks again,

Rob

[MasonJar]

Rob,

You've got a couple of options, all of which would probably serve you better than just ignoring/junking the old 4x6.

You could fix the old 4x6. You could conceivably add a better frame to the plywood deck, if you are willing to accept a small to moderate amount of touchup work after the fact. You could install the frame from underneath by toenailing/screwing the frame to the ply, but the best bet would be to go from the top.

You could salvage what you can and put it to use on the 3x4 or new layout.

Have you seen the January 2009 MR? Great article on modular (they call it sectional) benchwork. You might want to consider this appraoch if you have some storage space combined with an area large enough to set up, but not permanently install, a layout.

Also check out the modular forum for more ideas...

Andrew

[Russ Bellinis]

Robert, if the plywood board has warped, I would suggest getting some steel studs designed for wall construction use. Remove the old frame, all structures, and any removable details, and lay the studs on a couple of saw horses with the plywood layout board laying on the studs. Starting at the center of the layout and avoiding the need to drill through or under any track work, drill hoes for screws and nuts to bolt the plywood securely to the steel studs. If it is bowed up, use long enough screws that are threaded all the way up to the head or nearly to the head so that you can use nuts and washers to pull the board down to the studs. After the nuts have pulled the board down to the studs, you can cut off the excess screw with a hack saw. You don't need huge bolts for this, #10 machine screws are probably plenty strong enough, #8 might even work. Plywood warps because it is easy to bend. It can be flattened out just as easily. I think the steel studs are made of "channel" shaped steel like the "hat section" steel used for bracing on gondolas. When you secure the plywood to the studs, the studs will not bend, so the plywood has to conform to the straightness of the studs. You can still use some 1x3 or 1x4 or even 1x2 lumber for cross bracing, so you would only need 2 of the steel studs to form the main part of the frame. By the way, use flat head (counter sunk) screws so that you can cover the heads with scenery materials to hide them when done.

Next, if the track is uneven because the cork was not leveled when the track was first laid, and if you used a water soluble white glue like Elmer's to secure the track, you can repair and smooth out the track work easily. Go to your local auto parts store and pick up some cork and/or paper gasket material in a couple of thicknesses. It is difficult to lower high spots without pulling up the track to start over, but if you just bring up the low spots you can improve the track work tremendously. Start by locating any low spots. If you have Kaddee or other knuckle type couplers, the easiest way to locate low spots is to push two coupled cars around the layout by hand. Use your longest cars with the most overhang between couplers and trucks. You will notice a dip when the couplers slide up or down against each other. When you find a dip, mark it with a non water soluble felt pen. If you put a little mark on the top of the rail before and after the dip, the mark will stay through the next step, but can be easily removed with a Brite Boy track eraser when you are finished.

Next, pull up any track nails in the area of the dip, and soak the ballast with a LOT of water until the glue dissolves. Now carefully use a thin blade putty knife or similar tool to gently pry up on the track, cut some shims out of your gasket material about the width of the ties or slightly narrower, and slide them under the track. Retest with the cars to see if the dip is gone or needs another shim. Once the dip is gone, allow the area to dry to a damp condition, add fresh ballast and glue. When everything is dry and set up, recheck with your cars to make sure the operation is smooth, and use the Brite Boy to remove your marks from the rails. Use the same technique for the entire track until everything is smooth.

If you have any "kinks" in the curves and you built it using flex track, you can fix those to. Just remove any track nails in the area of the kink, soak the area down with water to dissolve the glue and soak for about 6 inches to either side of the bad spot. Then using a large flat blade screw driver (doesn't have to be huge, but bigger than the micro screw drivers we use for coupler screws, less likely to slip and cut you) push the track over so as to remove the kink. It will only need to move 1/4 inch or probably less to solve the problem. When the track is in position, glue it down with a little gap filling acc between the center of the ties and the cork road bed. Hold the track in place with your screwdriver until the acc has time to cure (probably 5 minutes or less).

The only reason that I can see for actually tearing down the layout and starting over is if you are going to build a bigger layout, or have decided to radically change the track plan and it is easier to remove and replace everything than it is to modify the existing layout.

[RobertInOntario]

Rob,

You've got a couple of options, all of which would probably serve you better than just ignoring/junking the old 4x6.

You could fix the old 4x6. You could conceivably add a better frame to the plywood deck, if you are willing to accept a small to moderate amount of touchup work after the fact. You could install the frame from underneath by toenailing/screwing the frame to the ply, but the best bet would be to go from the top.

You could salvage what you can and put it to use on the 3x4 or new layout.

Have you seen the January 2009 MR? Great article on modular (they call it sectional) benchwork. You might want to consider this appraoch if you have some storage space combined with an area large enough to set up, but not permanently install, a layout.

Also check out the modular forum for more ideas...



Thanks, Andrew. These ideas sound good too. I think I have the Jan. MR at home so I'll check it tonight. Building an improved frame sounds like a good plan as well. Take care, Rob

Andrew

[deckroid]

As someone who tore his old layout apart with a claw hammer, I can feel your pain and frustration. I quickly built a layout I thought I wanted, or I should say I quickly built my benchwork with no forethought on the layout I wanted to put on it. It was wobbly, I had issues with connectivity, I used bead foam, oh it was a mess. Thing is, it took me a while of reading and learning and seeing what others did that made me take a hammer to it about a year ago.

A club member gave me his old and battered copy of How To Build Benchwork by the master, Linn Westcott. I must admit, I have not looked back. Yeah, it was rough going 3 - 4 months without a running layout at home, but now I am very happy with what I have. Unfortunately, (depending upon your view) I put all further work on hold for about a month now, and I won't start again until after the move. We are building a new house, and I dont want to spend hours on scenery only to rip it up before moving.

I didn't scrap as much of my old layout as I thought I would. I reused to lumber, well, most of it anyway. I reused 90% of my flextrack, all of my turnouts and all buildings and trees. The mountains didn't survive me trying to save them. Which was a shame, because I got some really good advice on mountains with cardboard strips and plaster cloth and now I will need to rebuild entire ranges.

Overall, I am very happy with what I have done. I guess I could have shorn up my other layout, but then again, I would have spent this past year really working up my scenics and to only have to rip it all down. So, for me, it was worth it.

Just my .02 worth.

George

[RobertInOntario]

Robert, if the plywood board has warped, I would suggest getting some steel studs designed for wall construction use. Remove the old frame, all structures, and any removable details, and lay the studs on a couple of saw horses with the plywood layout board laying on the studs. ...
The only reason that I can see for actually tearing down the layout and starting over is if you are going to build a bigger layout, or have decided to radically change the track plan and it is easier to remove and replace everything than it is to modify the existing layout.

Thanks, Russ -- I appreciate this info. I guess I could buy the steel studs from Home Depot and similar places? Rob

[Trucklover]

Thanks, Russ -- I appreciate this info. I guess I could buy the steel studs from Home Depot and similar places? Rob

You should be able to find Steel Studs at Home Depot or other building supply places. I dont know about Lowes though, the one that i used to work at discontinued the line of steel studs we used to carry, sales just were not worth it for the space they took up. In the about one year that i worked there, i re-stocked them one time lol, the rest just sat in top-stock and nobody seemed to buy them. Metal Studs are used in mostly highrise and commercial businesses. Of coarse as soon as we discontinued them and sold them all for $.25 a piece, we had a flood of contractors come in looking to buy them, but we did not have them anymore and when i looked up them up in the Lowes Inventory System, all the other Lowes stores in our region had also discontinued them so the guys were out of luck lol. I just referred them to Ganahl Lumber. If you have a Lowes near you, they might stock them but im not sure, so dont quote me lol

[RobertInOntario]

You should be able to find Steel Studs at Home Depot or other building supply places. I dont know about Lowes though, the one that i used to work at discontinued the line of steel studs we used to carry, sales just were not worth it for the space they took up. In the about one year that i worked there, i re-stocked them one time lol, the rest just sat in top-stock and nobody seemed to buy them. Metal Studs are used in mostly highrise and commercial businesses. Of coarse as soon as we discontinued them and sold them all for $.25 a piece, we had a flood of contractors come in looking to buy them, but we did not have them anymore and when i looked up them up in the Lowes Inventory System, all the other Lowes stores in our region had also discontinued them so the guys were out of luck lol. I just referred them to Ganahl Lumber. If you have a Lowes near you, they might stock them but im not sure, so dont quote me lol

Thanks! I live literally a 5-minute walk from a Home Depot, so I'll check there first. Having a HD so close is certainly handy! Cheers, Rob

[RobertInOntario]

Robert, if the plywood board has warped, I would suggest getting some steel studs designed for wall construction use. Remove the old frame, all structures, and any removable details, and lay the studs on a couple of saw horses with the plywood layout board laying on the studs. Starting at the center of the layout and avoiding the need to drill through or under any track work, drill hoes for screws and nuts to bolt the plywood securely to the steel studs. If it is bowed up, use long enough screws that are threaded all the way up to the head or nearly to the head so that you can use nuts and washers to pull the board down to the studs. After the nuts have pulled the board down to the studs, you can cut off the excess screw with a hack saw. You don't need huge bolts for this, #10 machine screws are probably plenty strong enough, #8 might even work. Plywood warps because it is easy to bend. It can be flattened out just as easily. I think the steel studs are made of "channel" shaped steel like the "hat section" steel used for bracing on gondolas. When you secure the plywood to the studs, the studs will not bend, so the plywood has to conform to the straightness of the studs. You can still use some 1x3 or 1x4 or even 1x2 lumber for cross bracing, so you would only need 2 of the steel studs to form the main part of the frame. By the way, use flat head (counter sunk) screws so that you can cover the heads with scenery materials to hide them when done.

Could I not just straighten out the board by bolting 2 or 3 solid 2x4s to the bottom of it (instead of using the steel studs)? I guess there's always the risk that the 2x4s could warp too, but I would think it would improve the board and at least make it much better than it currently is!

I just came from Home Depot and the steel studs are not expensive but would have to be cut down in length. The most severe warping is mainly at one end of the layout on the narrow end, i.e. it's warped at the 4' side, not along the 6' side.

Thanks!!

Rob

[Russ Bellinis]

Rob, you could use a 1x2 & a 1x3 glued and nailed in an "L" shape. It is what Lynn Westcott coined "L girder benchwork." Once the glue has set up good (24 hours), go ahead and screw the plywood to the upside down "L" on the 1x2. The 1x3 & 1x2 together are very strong structurally. Paint the L girders after they are glued but before they are installed and they should never warp.

[RobertInOntario]

Rob, you could use a 1x2 & a 1x3 glued and nailed in an "L" shape. It is what Lynn Westcott coined "L girder benchwork." Once the glue has set up good (24 hours), go ahead and screw the plywood to the upside down "L" on the 1x2. The 1x3 & 1x2 together are very strong structurally. Paint the L girders after they are glued but before they are installed and they should never warp.

Thanks, Russ! I'll look into this. Rob