My first P2K kit

[nkp_174]

A couple days ago, I picked up a LL P2K Mather stock car kit from my LHS for $5. It apparently dates from around 1996...due to the lack of knuckle couplers and the flyer about the 1997 50' Mather stock car kitbash challenge.

It looks like a fairly simple kit to build, but the grab irons look oversized. I seem to think that Dr. Wayne dealt with this issue at one point, but I can't find the pictures. I'm trying to decide if it is worth the extra effort to use 0.008" brass wire in place of the styrene grab irons. I usually am not very picky about my HO rolling stock (weathered Athearn Blue Box has long been fine with me). It was purely an impulse buy.

Have most of you found it worthwhile to YOU to replace the grab irons on this car?

[doctorwayne]

Michael, only ten seconds ago I turned on the lights in the layout room in order to take some pictures of.....Proto2000 stock cars. While the lights warm up, I thought I'd check out the new posts.
I haven't seen anyone else replacing those over-size grab irons, although I have seen some complaints about installing the plastic ones, either because they break so easily or because they slip out of the tweezers, flying off never to be seen again. I'm sure, though, that I'm not the only one doing this. The nice thing about the Proto cars is that the grabirons are cast in styrene, like the rest of the car. Some manufacturers use Delrin or similar engineering plastics for this type of detail, and there's not much that will glue these plastics satisfactorily. If you wish to convert these cars to wire grabs, first install the plastic ones, using a suitable solvent cement. After the joint has fully hardened, usually 24 hours, use an appropriate blade to cut away all of the plastic grab except the bolt head detail. Next, using a suitable bit in your pin vise, drill holes for the new wire grabirons - locate them immediately below the bolt heads. You can make your own grabs from wire or use commercially available ones, such as those from Tichy, Westerfield, or A-Line. I use .012" brass or stainless steel wire when making my own - in HO, this scales out to just slightly over 1" in diameter. I used Tichy drop-style grabirons on my three cars, and also on the other two cars which I re-built. Any straight grabs were formed from brass wire, as were new roofwalk corner grabs.
When installing the new wire grabs, I like to make them long enough to extend through the side of the car, then, with a styrene spacer to keep them the proper distance from the car side, I bend-over the protruding wire and apply some ca on the inside of the car. Be sure to remove the spacer before applying the ca.
At the car corners, where grabs on the ends line up with those on the side, you can either drill the adjacent holes on an angle (one up, the other down) or shorten one leg of one grab of every pair. This can be easily done, using an old X-Acto blade and working on a sheet of glass or other hard surface. While holding the grabiron, position the heel of the blade (not the tip, as it can easily break-off) where you want to cut and press down firmly on the knife handle. This will snick-off the excess length when working with small-diameter brass, phosphor-bronze or stainless steel wire. If you're using music wire for grabs, a cut-off disk in your Dremel is a better option.
And don't despair if, when you're done, the grabs "look crooked": using smooth-jawed pliers, with the handles parallel to the car's side, simply grasp the offending grab lightly and move the handle up or down as much as is required.
I'll post some pictures of my cars, although I didn't take any "in-progress" shots. The conversion can be a bit time-consuming, but it's certainly not difficult, and the results, in my opinion, are well worth the extra time.

Wayne

[tetters]

If I'm not mistaken you also posted some jigs a while back that you made out of styrene to speed up the process Doc.

For posterity would you mind throwing them up here too?

I should add that I built about 14 of these kits when I first started thinking about trains and a layout. One thing that help with installing the plastic grabs a lot of times was to carefully ream out the hole with an appropriate sized drill bit. It makes it so much easier to get the grab in the pre-drilled holes in the first place. Saved me a lot of aggravation and I didn't break anymore grabs.

[Charlie B]

Michael,
I have built quite a few P2K kits recently and I have come to the conclusion I like the plastic Grabs and details.
The first thing I do is over drill every hole so the parts slip in fairly easy. I use needle nose pliers, not tweezers to handle the parts, and work on a white surface. I assemble as much of the car as possible before putting any of the ladders, stirrups, grabs, brake parts, etc. They will break easily when putting the body on the base. I use Testors liquid plastic cement (3502) in a small hypodermic syringe and shoot a drop in beside each hole. It sucks right into the holes.
The picture on the Mathers stock car box may be printed in reverse so don't use it as a guide. (don't ask).
The stock car is a very nice model, but takes a long time to assemble. I was about 4 hours on my first one, and I hope I can do the rest a lot faster.
To add to tetters post, be careful removing the parts from the sprues, that is where I break them if I break any.
Good luck
Charlie

[nkp_174]

Ok, it sounds like I should start off with installing the plastic grabs and then decide which way to proceed.

Thanks for the tip on the holes being too small. I'll use my pin vice. I've only built one kit with plastic grab irons before, but I don't remember it at all (9-10yrs ago). If I decide to replace them with brass grabs, I'll use jigs to bend them (that is my standard practice for On3 cars).

It seems backwards to me to assemble the rest before the grabs, but I have no recent experience involving styrene grabs, I will follow your advice! Best to learn from your mistakes than to make them my own!

4hrs?! I was expecting something along the lines of 30min-1hr! I might not work it into the construction list as soon as I was planning.

thanks!

[tetters]

To add to tetters post, be careful removing the parts from the sprues, that is where I break them if I break any.
Good luck
Charlie

Oooo...I almost forgot. I heated the blade of my knife when removing the grabs from the sprue. It helps it cut the plastic better by melting it slightly. I just kept a candle burning near the work area and would put the blade in the flame for a few secs every couple of cuts. It worked pretty well for me and if memory serves they even suggest it on the instructions somewhere.

[nkp_174]

Oooo...I almost forgot. I heated the blade of my knife when removing the grabs from the sprue. It helps it cut the plastic better by melting it slightly. I just kept a candle burning near the work area and would put the blade in the flame for a few secs every couple of cuts. It worked pretty well for me and if memory serves they even suggest it on the instructions somewhere.

That is in the instructions and I was planning to try it. a candle sounds like a fine heat source (my initial inclination was a cup of boiled water)...I'll try it instead!

[eightyeightfan1]

I don't have any of the P2K kits. But my Atlas SD35 came with the plastic grabs. After having to deal with the plastic grabs that came with my Kato C44-9W, I decided to replace them with metal ones from Detail Associates. I've even replaced the ones that came with my Athearn "Newer" Blue Box kits, and Genesis kits with the Detail Associate grabs.

[nkp_174]

Well, I decided to build it last night. The candle trick worked wonderfully and I used a #72 drill bit to ream out the holes (wish I'd reamed them all out in advance). Only one grab iron broke...and it seemed to have been defective. The flash was bad on them (You'd never see flash like that on a Grandt Line kit...but then again, the tooling on the P2K kit was probably done by some semi-skilled worker while Grandt's were done by the dean of styrene!)

It took me on the order of 2-2.5 hours to assemble...but I also made dinner during that time. I figured that in the interest of time, it would be wise to remove all the parts from the spure at the start...which I did. I suspect that this saved plenty of time. A nice looking car...quite comparable to my branchline boxcar. I probably won't assemble any more right now (if I can get them), as the time is best spent on On3 stuff for now. The first 1.5-1.75hrs were enjoyable, but not so much after that. I've left the roof loose for weathering.

Thanks for the tips!

Michael