Passing of Alvin F Stauffer

[jwb]

It doesn't happen too much here or on The Whistle Post, but there are people who have any number of sore points and will become agitated if you go anywhere near them. If you mention MR in less than flattering terms (especially in its really, really bad Russ Larson-Andy Sperandeo days), or Tony Koester ditto, or Lance Mindheim in any context other than he's Einstein, there are people who will get upset. ISLs in any but flattering terms will get people upset. I got banned from a forum once for not anticipating that remarks among these general areas would be controversial, and thus showed poor judgment in not keeping my mouth shut.

I could demonstrate this by linking to some easily controvertible statement by Lance Mindheim on his blog (even saying I'm sure he's a nice guy but) and then suggesting an ISL isn't necessarily the best choice of layout for many modelers, and I'd get REALLY angry replies even here. I have enough sense not to do this, and I now stay away from threads where these views would be unwelcome. On the other hand, there are neighborhoods I don't go into, either.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

It doesn't happen too much here or on The Whistle Post, but there are people who have any number of sore points and will become agitated if you go anywhere near them. If you mention MR in less than flattering terms (especially in its really, really bad Russ Larson-Andy Sperandeo days), or Tony Koester ditto, or Lance Mindheim in any context other than he's Einstein, there are people who will get upset. ISLs in any but flattering terms will get people upset. I got banned from a forum once for not anticipating that remarks among these general areas would be controversial, and thus showed poor judgment in not keeping my mouth shut.

I could demonstrate this by linking to some easily controvertible statement by Lance Mindheim on his blog (even saying I'm sure he's a nice guy but) and then suggesting an ISL isn't necessarily the best choice of layout for many modelers, and I'd get REALLY angry replies even here. I have enough sense not to do this, and I now stay away from threads where these views would be unwelcome. On the other hand, there are neighborhoods I don't go into, either.

I've managed not to enrage these people so far, but now I am curious about these controvertible statements.

I wish I could see the original discussions that got you in trouble. I've been warned by others that Lance Mindheim is prickly towards criticism. I made some comments on his "northeast corridor" layout he is building on two forums, and got warned (but not in trouble in any way) that I should be careful where I make those comments.

I think though, that I am within my rights to make these comments.

Personally, I am not afraid to stir the beehive when I say his 1990s New Jersey Northeast Corridor layout looks way off. There are some pretty significant errors, such as the use of the Lower Trenton Bridge as a railroad crossing over the Delaware river(A train hasn't crossed that bridge since before 1903, before there ever was a Northeast Corridor).

You can see a photo of his bridge here- <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.shelflayouts.com/nec_9.htm">http://www.shelflayouts.com/nec_9.htm</a><!-- m -->

This wouldn't really bother me so much, if he didn't spend a whole page on his "modeling strategy" about what things to include. Its ironic that he states -

In these situations where realism is the ultimate objective, forefront in your mind has to be an understanding of the elements that make the largest contribution. It's a subject that's often misunderstood, resulting in layouts that, while technically correct, somehow just aren't that convincing. While prototype accuracy and the addition of details are important, they aren't the major players.

If anything, it seems he took it to the opposite extreme. While he might not be as hung up on the "technical" details, the layout fails to be convincing because he totally through reality out the window.

You can see the real Lower Trenton Bridge, though the Trenton Morrisville Bridge is cut off (there is however, a freight crossing it in the fore ground.




He goes on to say this-

Try to avoid the temptation to incorporate more scenes than your space will support. Within those scenes avoid pushing the elements too closely together even if hard choices must be made to eliminate a few things. Finally, model what is there, interesting and mundane without cherry picking.

This is great advice, in fact, I 100% agree. However, in practice, it seems he once again took it to the opposite extreme, particularly with the "Dock" bridges that are part of the layout. These are right in the heart of urban Newark, and they are immediately next to Newark Penn Station (most photos of Dock are taken from the northern end of Newark's platforms. its REALLY close). He also models "Dock" tower, which is an interlocking for all the switches leading into Newark Penn Station from New York City.

It appears as though he left Newark Penn out all together. I don't blame him, its a huge station (almost every train stops there), and adding the PATH train would have made it even harder. Since the layout doesn't look complete, I also won't try to point out the lack of urban scenery, I'm sure it will be added in later.

However, without Newark Penn, and some of the other big industrial details that were present, It really only begins to vaguely look like Dock or Newark at all. He has taken it to such an extreme that it just doesn't resemble the place that its supposed to. He would have been better off not modeling Dock at all, expecially since there are so many other stretches of the NEC that could probably have been done better.

To be fair, that layout is probably fantastic to operate, even if it doesn't appear to be consistent with what it sets out to do. I'm positive there is a lot of excellent workmanship in it. If you look in the "night" shot of the Lower Trenton Bridge, the "Trenton Makes" sign not only lights up, but there are STARS in the background. That's really cool!



Now, getting back on topic as far as creating "Hard Hitting" posts...

I don't think there is anything I said that is unfair. Ever watch a movie review? I don't see my comments as being any different. I challenge anyone here to find a real excuse to be offended by my comments. I backed up my claims with facts, and attempted to make reasonable arguments for my positions.

The point is not to trash someone's work, but to learn from their mistakes and make better choices yourself. Being intentionally mean or combative defeats the purpose of a medium like an online forum.

[jwb]

I think there are various reasons why people get upset at posts, maybe more so than in ordinary conversation (although fights between spouses can arise from the same kind of issues). MR has improved so much since Besougloff took over that I'm not sure if people getting upset in conversations about it is a problem any more, but it might be a good example if so. When it was really, really bad, some people felt comfortable about it, because it meant they didn't have to expect as much from themselves. So if people pointed out whatever -- oh, no, another mediocre 2000 square foot Malcom Furlow wannabe layout!! -- some people might be reminded that they'd been too comfortable with mediocrity in other areas of their lives, feel guilty, and get mad at whomever reminded them of it.

By the way, here's an example of someone who got angry at a Lance Mindheim swipe <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83647-lances-latest-blog-entry-mar18-food-for-thought/">http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... r-thought/</a><!-- m --> The guy starts a thread on how wonderful Lance is, and he clearly loses his temper when yours truly doesn't agree.

I stay away from that forum now, not sure if they've banned me yet. I will say, though, that Lance seems more popular in Europe and the UK than in the US. So's Jerry Lewis.

[Ralph]

GEC, I think your analogy to a movie review is pretty apt and legitimate. A movie review expresses the reviewer's opinion and often includes recommendations for other potential viewers regarding its value...I guess things might become problematic if the reviewer were to suggest that I was a fool for still wanting to see the film despite his bad review. "Raising Arizona" is the funniest film I've ever seen despite the fact that my friends think all of my taste is in my mouth.

[Brakie]

GEC, I think your analogy to a movie review is pretty apt and legitimate. A movie review expresses the reviewers opinion and often includes recommendations for other potential viewers regarding its value...I guess things might become problematic if the reviewer were to suggest that I was a fool for still wanting to see the film despite his bad review. "Raising Arizona" is the funniest film I've ever seen despite the fact that my friends think all of my taste is in my mouth.

I agree..There are movies I enjoyed while the reviewers was less impress and gave them a "thumbs down".

The same can be said about Western novel writers..Want a good row? Speak ill of Zane Grey among western novel fans..I lump him in with Louis L'Amour...Both are excellent writers but, write slow action books-not my type of author since I like action..

[Green_Elite_Cab]

By the way, here's an example of someone who got angry at a Lance Mindheim swipe <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83647-lances-latest-blog-entry-mar18-food-for-thought/">http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... r-thought/</a><!-- m --> The guy starts a thread on how wonderful Lance is, and he clearly loses his temper when yours truly doesn't agree.

I stay away from that forum now, not sure if they've banned me yet. I will say, though, that Lance seems more popular in Europe and the UK than in the US. So's Jerry Lewis.

To be fair, your opening line to your first post is probably what set them off. It was a little unnecessary, and I know from my experience on other forums (not just train related ones) that they might make a case for that line being "flaming".

The rest of your post was legitimate.

Its somewhat reasonable that Lance is popular in the UK as well, since over there, extremely small mobile layouts are very popular, apparently due to the typical English household side (correct me if I'm wrong). Lance's layout design strategies fit well into this "mini-layout" method popular there.

GEC, I think your analogy to a movie review is pretty apt and legitimate. A movie review expresses the reviewers opinion and often includes recommendations for other potential viewers regarding its value...I guess things might become problematic if the reviewer were to suggest that I was a fool for still wanting to see the film despite his bad review. "Raising Arizona" is the funniest film I've ever seen despite the fact that my friends think all of my taste is in my mouth.

I agree..There are movies I enjoyed while the reviewers was less impress and gave them a "thumbs down".

The same can be said about Western novel writers..Want a good row? Speak ill of Zane Grey among western novel fans..I lump him in with Louis L'Amour...Both are excellent writers but, write slow action books-not my type of author since I like action..

I'm glad you guys feel that way, I thought I was taking a bit of a risk posting that "review".