The German Part of jwb's Layout

[jwb]

Here's a slight digression: French track (non TGV routes) is closer to US track, with individual bolts driven directly into the ties -- from any distance, the bolts look no different from spikes:

   

In earlier years, about half the country used UK style bullhead rail on chairs, but I think this is almost all gone by this point.

My own view of German HO model track is that Tillig/Pilz and Roco are cleverly designed so that code 83 rail will still work with .045 inch NEM flanges. (US code 83 flex track will not work with NEM flanges.) Using flex track, you can have curves of any radius, so that the overall effect isn't bad at all. When I can pick up German or French model magazines (which are in the $12 range over here, so it's good they're hard to find), I'm impressed by what I see -- weathering and scenery are first rate and an inspiration -- nothing toylike at all.

[Schraddel]

jwb,
your French track ist listed under "Oberbau Hs" in the link i gave you in my previous post.


To German Toy Trains H0 Scale:

This is one of the better rails.


This is the 95% reality. Note Grand Canyon type frog.
App. 95% of the, so called, Modellbahner have such kind of trackwork on their layouts. A puzzled collection of old and older toytrain tracks.
What you see in magazines is the rest of 5%; only the tiny peak of an icemountain.


Even newest products like this double slip are cruel.
Note the "plastic desert" between outer (metal)rails. Only high speed trains and locos have the chance to pass without stalling.
Nearly all of this toy train switches have frogs where the wheels rode on their flanges onto the frog bottom. If depth of frog and depth of flanges are just the same o.k. But this is never the case. The wheels seen on the first photo have the depth of 1.6mm (!)
1.6mm flanges were still in the 1970's the rule .
Meanwhile the flanges were reduced with the result of, that every wheel will fall into the frog when a car or loco is passing the switch.

Be glad you have the NMRA in the US with her standards an RPs which is the guarantee for smooth riding of the H0 US rolling stock. This is possible because the manufacturers of model RR made their stuff according to the NMRA standards.

Of course here in Germany we have the NEM
Yes, they made "Vorschriften" and "Normen", but most of the manufacturers of German model RR stuff simply ignore them.
Here is a link to a German model RR magazine which made public acess to the NEM Normen:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.miba.de/morop/">http://www.miba.de/morop/</a><!-- m -->

Compare:
NEM 310 with NMRA S-4.2
Theoretical it seemed to be acceptable, but ...
... have a closer look to the NEM340 !
The NEM340 is not a standard, it is only a describing of the situation of "as is" at the date when it was written (note date!). Every time Märklin can change their measures without notification to the NEM or anybody.
And Märklin is not the only manufacturer.
As a reaction switches and frogs are made very tolerable to meet the biggest part of the Modellbahners. Remember track and switches are often very old and as a further result models of rolling stock, even the newest and finest have had to constructed to negotiate very sharp and narrow radius which culminated often into a toy like apperance.

As a final result you got at least camoflaged toy trains.
And that make German model railroading so complicated and toy like.

There a 2 manufacturers of track systems in Germany who made tracks which accept NMRA RP25/110 wheels and NEM310 wheels:
Tillig-Elite, direct link to their Elite track:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tillig.com/Elite_Gleissysteme.html">http://www.tillig.com/Elite_Gleissysteme.html</a><!-- m -->
Gleise : tracks
Flexgleise : flexible tracks
Weichen / Kreuzungen : switches / crossings and double slips

And Weinert, a small but exclusive manufacturer:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mein-gleis.de/">http://www.mein-gleis.de/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mein-gleis.de/mein-gleis">http://www.mein-gleis.de/mein-gleis</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.weinert-modellbau.de/download">http://www.weinert-modellbau.de/download</a><!-- m --> => Mein Gleis pdf.

These both are in my opinion the best available tracks for German prototype RR and real model trackwork.
Roco Line is not bad ,but still has frogs made for flangetip running and causing
The rest is simply a toy.

Lutz

[jwb]

I won't disagree that there are toylike aspects, although I'm trying to do things to as high a standard as I can on my layout, understanding at the same time that the layout is also a souvenir collection as much as an effort to build a museum exhibit!

I do note as well that many Anglophone modelers of European systems seem not to have terrifically high expectations -- I was involved in a UK-based forum with a lot of US membership for European-prototype modelers a number of years ago that sort of broke down when the Maerklinisten sort of took over and objected to anyone asking too many questions or trying to do too much! That experience probably cooled my enthusiasm for a while!

As I said earlier, I've been desultorily collecting European stuff for maybe 45 years and doing what I can to bring it up to current standards. Here's a shot of a Roewa (long defunct manufacturer) box van that I upgraded with Roco NEM coupler pockets and Kadee couplers. The Lima Italian car to the right has the same modification. I painted the roof silver to match Italian practice, and the car will eventually be weathered. Lima is also at least temporarily out of production. Their stuff in the past was very cheap and minimal, but some of it can be brought along, in my opinion.

   

[jwb]

I've been scanning a lot of French photos from four different trips lately, so I'm in sort of a French mood, but let me make one or two points to show what I'm after.

Here's a shot that shows something of what I enjoy about European prototype:

   

There is a great deal of Reiz here, "atmosphere" that involves on one hand weathering and other artistic approaches, as well as catenary, which is something we don't have a lot of in the US. Wheel standards are very secondary in trying to bring these things onto a layout, in my opinion. Commercial European models are too clean and shiny, and weathering does a lot to bring them in line. But also, while you show a bare metal individual wheelset in your post above, that's actually pretty well concealed even on commercial models, including brake shoe and journal detail, blackening, etc. If you're aiming at getting to an overall scene, as in the photo here, a lot can be done to draw attention away from the wheels.

Naturally, I'm not using C-Track!

[BR60103]

For the rest of us, 1.6mm is about .063". Old NMRA was .035; RP25 is .025.

[Schraddel]

It is not only the wheels. Often the model or parts of it are distorted to made them suitable for accepting toy train wheels.
Your old Röwa Box Car was one of the best models of an European UIC standard box car, i too own several of them. But this model have a bugbear.
Have a look onto the distance between the outer wheelrim to the axle journal mounting device.


A prototype photo of another car to show what i mean. This is an older car without brake equipment.


A bunch of different wheelsets.
From left to right:
- Proto87 (really 1:87 scale dimensions)
- RP25/Code 93 (some smaller then usual RP25/Code 110)
- NEM310 (with maximal measures)
- Märklin (1960's with those 1.6mm deep flanges; note lack of radius between wheelrim and flange)
- Trix Express (a now out of use system with heavily overdimensioned flanges)

For the latter one Trix Express System the Röwa Box Car was made. Constructed by Willi Ade in the middle of the 1960's for Trix it was like a bright star rising. Never before such an level of fine details was realized. But the bugbear was to accept the Trix Express wheelsets with their overdimensional flanges.
For this, as you can see on your own car, the device of blind axle bearings was made. And this is an explanation for the rectangular openings in the bottom of the car just above the wheels.
In fact the running gear and frame of this car was far too wide.


A long time i accepted this, but then i started over to do something against these toy train aspects. Here an other Röwa box car was demounted and the frame was cut with an micro circular saw. On both sides of the frame a stripe of app. 2mm was cut away and the underbody then remounted. But it was then 4mm narrower.

Later the mould of Röwa were taken over by Roco and with some alterations they are manufactured until today.


Upper: A car (Roco) in the stage of beeing bashed. The cut outs were made to accept the short coupling devices.
Lower: A Röwa car of the same type. The borings for the axle stubs were set direct into the moulded axle bearings. Additional the car got a 3-point suspension. Two of the holes, on one end of the car bored for the axle stubs, were made to an oval shape in vertical manner so that the axle can travel up and down into them. The piece of brass wire seen on the photo is an additional middle axle bearing. So in this manner the axle can rock an all 4 wheels are everytime on the railhead, even on uneven rails. Now you are able to reduce the flange heights of the wheels dangerless to 0.5mm. Dangerless because all 4 wheels are allways onto the rails and the reduced flanges will work under nearly all circumstances. Of course it is primitive, but it works flawless.
This is a depart from the toy train system were only the deep flanges kept care for not derailing.


Left: The original with much too wide underframe.
Right: The narrowed underframe.


Left: Still another box car of this Röwa/Roco sort. A later production model with original Roco short coupling device. Also narrowed, 3-point suspension and turned down flanges.
Right: A Fleischmann box car, also of UIC Standard Type. It was a later construction with an prototype narrow underframe. Also bashed with an 3-point suspension in form of a rocker leverage. Note hoe the wheels are turned down to meet NMRA RP25/110 Standards. In their original shape they even do not meet NEM310 Standards! Real toy train wheels.

Lutz

[jwb]

I guess I would still take the view that if finer wheel standards are your focus, that's great. I tend not to concern myself too much with the bottoms of the cars when there's more to do with the tops:

   

   

   

   

Notice how so many freight cars have different-colored paint patches. I'm not sure if any commercial models have done this, though I may have overlooked something or not be aware of higher-quality offerings. Also, commercial models seem consistently to get the roof colors wrong! In my own view, I'd look at these things before I started to scrutinize the wheels. In fact, it wasn't until I began scanning all these photos that I started to understand that these color issues were part of what I enjoy about the Reiz. Chacun à son gout!

[sailormatlac]

Thanks Schraddel!

Is there a reason for european manufacturers to stay so eclectic and obsolete in their technical data? Is it space limitation that made people still favour the ridiculously small track radius? I have some Jouef tracks at home that came with a late 60s SNCF Trans Europ Express Train set. Seriously, this old toy stuff isn't that different from some of your examples. I just can't see the economical reason behind this stance. I can understand Marklïn is living in it's own secluded world, but that doesn't make sense in an era were "fine" modelling is always the selling point. If we follow the North American market, working with standards never handicaped any player n the business and gave a lot of flexibility to the buyers.

Matt

[Schraddel]

Matt!

This will be a very complex and extensive task to explain why German miniature railroads are so backwards orientated.

First:
"Der größte Feind des Deutschen Modellbahners sind Gleise. Das Geld was er für den Kauf neuer Gleise ausgeben muß, steht dann nicht mehr für Schnäppchenkäufe beim Rollmaterial zur Verfügung."
I will try to translate it:
"The biggest enemy of the German Modellbahner are tracks. The money he has to spent for buying new tracks is no more available for buying rolling stock at bargain prices."
For this reason the most layouts here consist of old, older and still older tracks. Collected over decades since early 1950's or still earlier, used and weared out, hand downed and reused again without becoming better.

Second:
What also never changed with this old track is the geometrical concept. Created in the middle of the 1930's as toy train track there was:
- an radius of 360mm (i call it H0-36)
- a switch angle on 30° (depending on the 30° curved track sections, of which 12 of them made a full circle)
But in the 1930's a Class 01 4-6-2 Pacific was reduced to an mere 0-4-0 and D-Zugwagen (the equivalents of heavyweights) were reduced to a length of only 14cm (if exact in 1:87 they have an lenght of 28cm)
No matter these toy trains moved satisfying on their tracks.

Third:
Meanwhile over the decades rolling stock became more and more accurate. Going the natural development in direction of being a real 1:87 model of a prototype.
Yes there are fine examples of real models of German prototype. Steamers with an incredible numbers of extra mounted plumbing detail on theier boilers, passenger car with full modeled 1:87 length.
But the big big bugbear is, there was no real development of tracks and track systems. Geometry is still 1930's standards and the standard of the most part of the German Modellbahner.
For this reason the running gear of every new constructed piece of rolling stock has to fullfill the 1930's standard's to negotiate the H0-36 corners.
If a manufacturer wish to sell his products on the German market, he has to meet the 1930's practice.
And often there are made some ridiculous compromises, especially with steam loco "models". So you can find even on the finest models so curiosities like:
- about 3mm too high mounted pilot decks
- about 5mm too wide mounted cylinder blocks
- "Off Road" look of the running gear
- much too high passenger cars riding on their trucks (These are the better ones, many are shorties)
and so on
In short terms i call these camouflaged toy trains.

Fourth:
The historic development after the WW2 in Germany according miniature trains.
There were 3 big manufacturers here:
- Märklin
- Fleischmann
- Trix
Three manufacturers with this in common:
- "H0"
- gauge 16,5mm
That was all they have had in common. The rest was complete fully intentional different and incompatible to each other.
Even the scale was different( that was the reason because i have set H0 in " "):
- Märklin 1:87
- Fleischmann: 1:82
- Trix: 1:90
Trix was meanwhile absorbed by Märklin and the Trix-Express system with it's really overdimensioned flanges disappeared. In the course of the decades meanwhile thes all made the models in an scale of 1:87. And DCC became a common standard.
Today only Märklin and it's 3-Rail systen differ from the 2-Rail standards. And because Märklin is the leader on the H0 market here it seemed the biggest brake shoe for developments in direction of finer wheel and rail standards. But it only seems so; the really brakemen for progress are the traditionalists with their old an older trackwork.


Fifth:
These facts listed above are still strongly anchored in the brains of the most part of the German Modellbahner. And for the hardcore ones, like some traditional Märklinists, but also some 2-Railers, it seemed to be a fanatic confession instead a hobby for enjoying.
I am not a psychologist and will not write further here. This will be the task of an real psychologist with an degree or diploma to discover why.

And this is only the uppermost peak of the whole icemountain. Things are far most complex.

Lutz

[modelsof1900]

Lutz,
I'm not sure if everyone is interested in your stories from the model railrodaing stone age.
Yes, there are a couple of so called "model railroaders" which are living in this world using old track and more old models.
However I know enough German model railroaders - and these are a great majority - which exercise a very realistic and prototypical model railroading. And most clubs are societies with a high interest in good model railroading, absolutely!
Ok, in all cases there are exceptions however they do not dominate the German model railroad scene.
Reading your posts I could think that all German modelers are living in a pre WWII era and playing with their first Marklin toy trains from that time.
Your posts communicate a very bad and wrong impression about the German model railroading scene!

[Schraddel]

Bernd!

You may be right. About a fifth of the German Modellbahner scene have departed from the usual toy like stuff. And there with this minority of about 20% you will find great prototype orientated model railroading and model building. Some of them have moved to US prototype model RR. But this is still a minority and sorry, the rest is really like i have described in my postings.

Lutz

[Schraddel]

@Bernd!

Do you need more evidences?
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=111726">http://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=111726</a><!-- m -->

Lutz