HO Grand Trunk 2-8-0 (Class D2)

[sailormatlac]

Yes, it's not a typo, you definitely read "Canadian Northern" and not it's successor Canadian National.

Over the last few days, I tried to find models of pre-CNR locomotives... The results are abysmall. I only found 1 model online of a generic 4-4-0 repainted in a Canadian Pacific and, from someone I know, a Tyco/Mantua painted in very approximative Canadian Northern colors.

I'm always mesmerized by the sheer lack of pre-CNR models. For some unknown reason, people aren't not attracted to the 1900s-1920s while it's not very hard to assemble a credible fleet. It's why I decided to take up the challenge of kitbashing such a locomotive.

With the help of Doctorwayne, we treaded for a few days the ghosts of CNR to find out suitable models. In fact, a lot of candidate are out there and among them, very attractive Grand Trunk locomotives with Russian iron boiler jacket, glossy black paint and white tires.

I have a Bachmann Spectrum Maine Central 2-8-0 sitting idle on my shelves and decided to convert it into something more glamour. There was two options possible to me:

1) Grand Trunk (CNR class N-4 and N-5) with the first ones built in 1906.

2) Canadian Northern (CNR class N-1 and N-2) built from 1912 to 1918.





No decals are available and I couldn't locate CDS Lettering Grand Trunk 1913 dry transfer. Out of stock everywhere. Quite funny when you think you will never see a picture of a HO scale model! ;-)

That said, I decided that both are great and are extremely close to Bachmann specs.It's a matter of 2 mm and I can live with that. For the moment, I'll start with a Canadian Northern (N-1-a ) as it looked like at the dawn of WW1 when freshly built by Canada Foundry. Here's the beast: http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/site_...516147.jpg.

If you remember my CNR 2-8-0 #2500, it is basically the same engine sharing common specs. Howerver, it will be easier to model because there was far less appliances on it back then before CNR reshopped and upgraded it over the years. http://www.cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.p...emId=59700

Matt

[sailormatlac]

Question: Anybody tried to remove Bachmann 2-8-0 domes? By Jove, it's glued down crazy. I'm puzzled. If possible, I'd like to salvage the domes. If impossible, I'll have to sacrifice them...

EDIT: After struggling with the boiler and fracturing it in two while stamping the dome (yes... the boiler split in two halves but sand dome stayed perfectly attached), I found an old tutorial by or very own Doctorwayne advising us to use lacquer thinner. I did, it worked... Oh well, live and learn... live and learn indeed. Fortunately, the boiler split flawlessly along a boiler strap so it was easy to glue it together. It shouldn't be visible.

Matt

[sailormatlac]

The starting point is a sound-equipped Bachmann Spectrum Maine Central #507 Consolidation.



Using Adobe Illustrator, I compared both the model and the prototype identify where major modifications will be required and to determine the precise dimension and location of new parts. I made a quick mock up of a Grand Trunk 2-8-0 with the lower running board.



Then I made a second mock up for the CNoR locomotiqve. It's that version I'll be building.



The first big challenge was removing the domes. As previously stated, the glue used is incredibly strong and I broke the model in two halves when trying to get rid of a stubborn sand dome.



Fortunately, I found out lacquer thinner was strong enough to molten the glue and pop the domes with a small metal rod.



I'll be honest, I had quite a good laugh when I saw the boiler split in the middle... It was totally impredictable. But don't worry, the fracture is neat and once glued and sanded down, it was no more apparent.

Here a quick shot of the progress so far. The domes have been swapped and the large sand dome is under surgery to slim down enough to fit the prototype. More on that unusual method later.



Most of the work on the cab is now done. The windows are now back to their original dimensions, leaving a nice flat panel to paint the CNoR logo. I used 2mm styrene strips to reframe the opening. Two roof hatches were also sanded down. A second one will have to be built at a later time.

Matt

[sailormatlac]

OK, only idiots don't change their mind. After giving it a lot of thoughts and after getting very interesting prototype informations from Doctorwayne, I decided to shift the project toward modelling Grand Trunk Railway #719, a 2-8-0 built in Schenectady in 1907.

This prototype is also closer to Bachmann Consolidation. And a big plus, it has a Russian iron boiler jacket, something I've been tempted to do. Lots of challenge, but I feel it will be more rewarding. However, I'm not giving up on the CNoR bash.

Pictures to come soon, the boiler was stripped of all unnecessary details.

Matt

[sailormatlac]

Poor engine, I really butchered it... Trimmed down the cab, enlarged and added window, removed almost every boiler details... etc. Some details still must be gone and more putty before starting to rebuild it.



Later...



And yes, the large sand dome was trimmed to be the right size. It was cut in to halves to remove excess material and glued back together to make a correct-shaped steam dome. I thought it would be easier that way than trying to reshape an incorrect brass dome.



Unfortunately, the Bachmann bell broke it 3 at some point. Bachmann detail part alliage is really brittle and the glue too strong. It's a shame because the casting was excellent. I'll try to salvage it. As for detail parts, except the headlight, the use of commercial brass parts will be limited.

BTW, I'm looking for a 28" spoked front pilot wheel. I have little experience with that kind of wheels. Any suggestion about a good manufacturer?

Matt

[sailormatlac]

Hi!

I need some help to get the piping right on 719. As built, the loco wasn't superheated and was a compound with Stephenson valve gear. It was later modernized, but I'm doing the as built version. The piping is quite simple. Be aware that Grand Trunk used jacket over the boiler and smokebox, means some pipes are hidden under the lagging.





I want to make a locomotive with all the piping, not just a botched approximation.

Thanks for your help.

Matt

[JaBear]

Gidday Matt, I hope you don't mind but I'm putting up a link to a chap on another forum who does what i think are pretty radical conversions, whose solutions to various items, such as making domes, may be helpful.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/241195/2708670.aspx#2708670">http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/241195/ ... px#2708670</a><!-- m -->

Cheers, the Bear.

[sailormatlac]

Gidday Matt, I hope you don't mind but I'm putting up a link to a chap on another forum who does what i think are pretty radical conversions, whose solutions to various items, such as making domes, may be helpful.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/241195/2708670.aspx#2708670">http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/241195/ ... px#2708670</a><!-- m -->

Cheers, the Bear.

I certainly don't mind. This is a pretty neat conversion! I love the dome idea.

Matt

[sailormatlac]

No visible progress today, but I completely redrawn GTR fonts from many pictures. Redrawing each letter and number in CAD and fool proofing it against several pictures of different locomotives wasn't easy, but it was well worth the time. I discovered there was too variation of this paint scheme: a bold number version and a regular number version. Everything was similar except the stroke width.

Best regards,

Matt

[sailormatlac]

It's always better with pictures...





Matt

[doctorwayne]

Hi!

I need some help to get the piping right on 719. As built, the loco wasn't superheated and was a compound with Stephenson valve gear. It was later modernized, but I'm doing the as built version. The piping is quite simple. Be aware that Grand Trunk used jacket over the boiler and smokebox, means some pipes are hidden under the lagging.




I want to make a locomotive with all the piping, not just a botched approximation.

Thanks for your help.

Matt

Matt, in your diagram of the firemen's side of the locomotive, the pipe between the cab and air compressor, which you've labelled "compressor exhaust/compressor steam" is actually a steam delivery pipe, taking steam from the turret (basically a manifold for distributing steam to various small appliances, such as the air compressor, generator, etc). The exhaust for the spent steam is the line coming from the top portion of the compressor, which runs to the smokebox. On a more modern locomotive, that exhaust might be one of several leading instead to a feedwater heater - no point in wasting heat if it can be utilised elsewhere.
The pipe beneath the cab, and just below the water delivery pipe from the tender, is an overflow pipe for the injector, an appliance which uses steam from the turret to lift the water and then force it forward to the check valve. These early locomotives had one on each side, while many more modern locomotives replaced the one on the fireman's side with a feedwater heater. In either case, all steam locomotives were required to have two independent means of supplying water to the boiler to (hopefully) prevent a boiler explosion.
The dotted line between the compressor and air tank won't likely go directly to the air tank, but rather through a length of pipe and/or pipe arranged as cooling coils, since the air coming from the compressor will be hot. That pipe could go behind the air reservoir or might also pass over or under the boiler. I recall reading that the air was required to pass through at least 75' of pipe before entering the reservoir tank. Those dashed lines may be a pipe from the reservoir to the brake stand, but it would be more commonly seen on the engineer's side of the cab, where the brake stand is located.

On the lower diagram, showing the engineer's side, that dotted line labelled "where does it go?" is likely the pipe from the last air reservoir in the system to the engineer's brake stand.
The pipe labelled "to tender" is actually a water line from the tender, similar to that on the fireman's side. There should also be an overflow pipe for the injector on this side.
The small lines at the cylinder are likely lubricator lines to supply oil to the valves. Since this locomotive had Stephenson valve gear, the actual lubricator, which ran off the motion of the valve gear through a connecting rod, would be located between the frames of the locomotive, under the boiler, along with the valve gear. The lube lines likely ran from there under the sheet metal boiler sheathing, re-appearing at a point near the valves. These lines should be similar on both sides of the locomotive.

The part on the Bachmann 2-8-0, missing from your prototype, is a power reverse, which moves parts of the valve gear to control whether the loco moves forward or in reverse when the throttle is opened. On small locomotives, which often used Stephenson gear, the reverse rod or reach rod would extend from the valve gear into the cab, and would be moved manually by the engineer.
When locos increased in size, and other valve gear types became more widely used, various methods were devised to assist moving these now heavy parts. These included a manual geared type (potentially dangerous for the engineer), a geared type fitted with a worm (eliminating the danger of the first type), or piston-type devices powered by either air or steam.

Hope this clears up some of the mystery.

If you can find it, the 1925 Locomotive Cyclopedia is invaluable in explaining the intricacies of steam locomotives. The book of which I speak is actually a reprint of the original, 1131 pages offering way more than most of us will ever need (or want) to know on the subject.
Another useful volume is Model Railroader's Cyclopedia - Volume 1 Steam Locomotives. It explains, with photos and diagrams, many of the features common to steam locomotives, and does so in simpler terms. There are lots of photos and diagrams in both books. I found both, used, at two different train shows.

Wayne

[sailormatlac]

Matt, in your diagram of the firemen's side of the locomotive, the pipe between the cab and air compressor, which you've labelled "compressor exhaust/compressor steam" is actually a steam delivery pipe, taking steam from the turret (basically a manifold for distributing steam to various small appliances, such as the air compressor, generator, etc). The exhaust for the spent steam is the line coming from the top portion of the compressor, which runs to the smokebox. On a more modern locomotive, that exhaust might be one of several leading instead to a feedwater heater - no point in wasting heat if it can be utilised elsewhere.

Make sense and fits what I see on high resolution picture and from piping diagrams.

The dotted line between the compressor and air tank won't likely go directly to the air tank, but rather through a length of pipe and/or pipe arranged as cooling coils, since the air coming from the compressor will be hot. That pipe could go behind the air reservoir or might also pass over or under the boiler. I recall reading that the air was required to pass through at least 75' of pipe before entering the reservoir tank. Those dashed lines may be a pipe from the reservoir to the brake stand, but it would be more commonly seen on the engineer's side of the cab, where the brake stand is located.

OK, I was curious if early locomotives had the coil, seems yes. The pipe connecting the air pump and tank is clear on the picture. I jusst guessed it connected directly. It looks like an elbow going under the boiler. If I understand correctly, the coil would be hidden behing/under the boiler which is logical with the care taken to hide everything on this loco.

On the lower diagram, showing the engineer's side, that dotted line labelled "where does it go?" is likely the pipe from the last air reservoir in the system to the engineer's brake stand.

OK

The pipe labelled "to tender" is actually a water line from the tender, similar to that on the fireman's side. There should also be an overflow pipe for the injector on this side.

On in service pictures, I see the overflow. On the builder photo, I don't see it. Lesson learned: builder photos are not always taken when the engine is fully completed so one must be cautious.

The small lines at the cylinder are likely lubricator lines to supply oil to the valves. Since this locomotive had Stephenson valve gear, the actual lubricator, which ran off the motion of the valve gear through a connecting rod, would be located between the frames of the locomotive, under the boiler, along with the valve gear. The lube lines likely ran from there under the sheet metal boiler sheathing, re-appearing at a point near the valves. These lines should be similar on both sides of the locomotive.

OK, so small pipes entering the jacket would do the job.

The part on the Bachmann 2-8-0, missing from your prototype, is a power reverse, which moves parts of the valve gear to control whether the loco moves forward or in reverse when the throttle is opened. On small locomotives, which often used Stephenson gear, the reverse rod or reach rod would extend from the valve gear into the cab, and would be moved manually by the engineer.

That's what I thought. On the CNoR locomotive in the post (which have a Walschaert valve, we can see a rod extending from the cab to the valve gear. I imagine it would be similar except the rod would likely be somewhat coupled with the valve under the boiler.

Hope this clears up some of the mystery.

Sure it does! Now I have to do my homework.

If you can find it, the 1925 Locomotive Cyclopedia is invaluable in explaining the intricacies of steam locomotives. The book of which I speak is actually a reprint of the original, 1131 pages offering way more than most of us will ever need (or want) to know on the subject.
Another useful volume is Model Railroader's Cyclopedia - Volume 1 Steam Locomotives. It explains, with photos and diagrams, many of the features common to steam locomotives, and does so in simpler terms. There are lots of photos and diagrams in both books. I found both, used, at two different train shows.

I absolutely need reference books indeed!

Matt

[sailormatlac]

Is the rod circled in yellow part of the power reverse? I see a rod connected to an eccentric going right under the boiler.



Matt

[doctorwayne]

That rod is the valve stem, Matt, and the motion from the valve gear is transmitted to it via rocker arms, mostly hidden under the boiler.

Wayne

[sailormatlac]

Question:

The running board on the engineer side is installed really low on the prototype. Would the running board be the normal width but hanging at a few inches from the boiler, or would the plating be full width against the boiler jacket?

Thank you.

Matt