Old AHM/Rivarossi 4-4-0 upgrading

[Schraddel]

Hello,

here i will describe what i am doing to modernize this old steamer. Long ago in the 1960's Rivarossi made them for AHM according to prototypes of the famous Virginia & Truckee. These 4-4-0s were then owned by some silver screen companies and well known movie stars.
But in the 1960's made their own type of motor in terms of today relavtively huge and rough running. To get this motor into the tiny 4-4-0 they made 2 bugs to make it possible. First the motor was placed into the tender and second the overall scale was larger than 1:87.


Some years ago this loco came into my posession and because i knew about the bugs i had very little notice about it. Additional there were the tiny wheel of pilot and tender with very deep flanges to made the things more worse.
But because this loco was in the livery of the AT&SF, i paid some attention to it when i became an Santa Fe fan. First try to make something out of this loco was the replacement of the rough Rivarossi motor by an cheap Mabuchi can motor. Therefor the driveshaft to the loco has to be stretched which was don by an piece of white plastic tube. The loco was then running much better, but still not the real McCoy. Main reason was the unreliable current pick up. Optical there were the tiny wheels and the sort of pendulous abdomen below the tender to get the Rivarossi motor into.

I made some comparison with real AT&SF 4-4-0s:
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O.k. here we are, for a scale model of one of the V&T's relative small 4-4-0s the AHM/Rivarossi model is defintive too large. But for an modell of one of AT&SF's later 4-4-0's it will pretty good match. Not 110%, but a good stand-in. So i decided to do something with the old loco.





Here i fitted 33' wheels into one of the tender trucks. Right the old wheels for comparison, more flanges than wheel.





Fist task was to remove the old drivetrain completely. There is an sheet metal plte onto the tender botton wich keep the thread of the truck monting screws. Also this device was former a motor bracket, i bend the brackets from vertical to horizontal because they were no more need for them.





Loco and tender running gear in an intermediate status for testing.





Here too the old drivetrain was completely removed. I purchhased an Mashima motor of suitable size and placed it as shown. As an relative light part the motor was placed above the pilot truck. The axle gear of the first pair of drivers were relaced by an Roco gear wheel with 24 teeth. The worm was direct onto the motor shaft and the gab between was bridged by an idler. The idler was beared loose on a short 2.5mm axle and theis axle was beared into bores drilled into the two pieces of 1.5mm styrene sheet. The two styrene peices were cut in seize so in that manner, they will pinched into the part of the chassis. Thus enabeling to adjust the correct meshing of the gears. Test running helps a lot, noise is a good indicator for incorrect mesh. So when the corect mesh is adjusted through the backdoor, the two styrene sheets were fixed by glueing with CA. But be careful not to glue the idler wheel. All gears were from Roco and out of my grab box.
This was quick and dirty making loco gears.
Of course there more scientific and more techinical and craftmanshipical methods to do that, but it runs.





The loco was then makeshift wired, assembled an analogue test runnings were made again. Note the replaced pilot wheels, the 33' wheels and the disappearing of the tender abdomen improving the impression of the model too. The flanges of the drivers were turned down to meet NMRA Standards.

Cheers Lutz

[cnrglen]

Looks 100% better Lutz.

[doctorwayne]

I agree: very much improved appearance and, I'm sure, running qualities, too.

Wayne

[Schraddel]

The running qualities, mechanical yes it was improved, The 1:racey gear ratio was reduced to more civilized 1:24 ratio.
But electrical it was as bad as before. The old dilemma with the offset current pick up, now with analogue running bad and at least it will be worse running on DCC. For the offset pick up both traction tires were mounted onto the drivers of the left side. This caused a tendency of the loco to run askew under pull.


So something was to do with it.





Both wheels with traction tires were mounted on the rear axle to solve the proble with askew running.
The pick ups were made im my well proven and tested manner out of 0.3mm bronze wire.
The main and connecting rod were mounted in the right way for 4-4-0s; main rod inner. In my grab box i found two suitable hex head screws with longer shafts for the rear pair of drivers.





For the tender trucks i decided to retain the original axle wipers. As the material of the trucks is not glueable, two tiny bores of 0.5mm were done as shown.
A length of 0.3mm bronze wire were bend to a U-shape. The legs were threaded into the bores and bent to shape. Excess material was cut off.
So an all wheel pick up of the tender was realized.





Next was preparing for DCC wiring. There will be at least 6 wires between loco and tender. To bundle them i made this wire binders. U-shaped pieces of 0.5mm brass wire were inserted into 0.5mm bores.





The headlight was cored and a 3mm warm white LED inserted.
But the headlight and the stack are really huge in comparison. Here the deviation from the scale of 1:87 is awkwardly noticeable. Still searching for a solution.

Cheers Lutz

[doctorwayne]

For the tender trucks i decided to retain the original axle wipers. As the material of the trucks is not glueable, two tiny bores of 0.5mm were done as shown.
A length of 0.3mm bronze wire were bend to a U-shape. The legs were threaded into the bores and bent to shape. Excess material was cut off.
So an all wheel pick up of the tender was realized.

That's a very simple, yet elegant, solution to working with those non-glueable engineering plastics. It seems to me to be much easier than drilling and tapping for a screw-type mounting, and I'd guess it to be more durable, too, as there's no chance of stripping threads if one is a little too heavy-handed with the screwdriver. Very nicely-done, Lutz, (and very useful for my Challenge locomotive's tender, too)!

Wayne

[modelsof1900]

Lutz,
a picture of the parts for your model that we talked about yesterday. Unfortunately unsalable because they will be need for my own model - for a later rebuilding project!



Size of lantern 14,5 mm (0.57 in) ) and the stack has a hight of 16,5mm (0.66 in). This is one lantern on picture only which I have a bit photo edited.
I know that there will be available also a bracket for this lantern by same manufacturer (?) but this is not in my stock.
Try to get the parts on Ebay. I think that they will be offered there from time to time.

Wish you good progress with this small loco which will be a good eye catcher among all the diesels of modern Fremo layouts!

[Schraddel]

Sometimes life is like an ketchup bottle, at first nothing comes out of, but then the whole rest.


From no parts to much parts. A friend of mine sent me a choice of stacks, cowcatchers and oil lanterns.
The choice of stacks spans from a shotgun, three styles of Diamonds, a Congdon and at least a classic Radley & Hunter.
Two different styls of oil burnung headlights and five styles of cowcatchers.
Hollywood here i come, i'm now prepared to dress her up for any Wild West movie.

Cheers Lutz

[Schraddel]

At least i choose out of this cornucopia of details these parts:


This was the smallest headlight lantern and had also an mounting bracket.
The stack is also of the Diamond type, but in plastic.
Also i found in the depths of my grab box a very ornamental bell cage. For modern locos it is too ornamental, but here it seemed me just fitting right.





Meanwhile the headlight was drilled from the bottom and a small Super Golden White LED was inserted. This is a oil burner and the tone of the light shoul be more on the glowing side.
The bracket was soldered. Here the wires from the LED comint out of the bottom of the lantern will be pass through the hole and then disappear as inconspicous as possible into the smokebox.
The bell cage also was soldered and the bell itself placed into.





The bore in the stack at the lower end was bored out with a 3.5mm drillbit and fits then without any further need for adaptive work onto the existing socket. So the new stack could be easily fitted by using the original screw.
The bell was placed only loosely the check the effect it makes.

At least if anybody wonders why i did not answer to Bernhard (aka modelsof1900), of course i did. As we are both living in Germany, we have the benefits of a flatrate for telephonecalls. And so we did.

Cheers Lutz

[gna]

The loco was then makeshift wired, assembled an analogue test runnings were made again. Note the replaced pilot wheels, the 33' wheels and the disappearing of the tender abdomen improving the impression of the model too. The flanges of the drivers were turned down to meet NMRA Standards.

Cheers Lutz

I'm curious how you turned down the flanges. I have an old AHM/Rivarossi Big Boy I recently purchased, and I have been remotoring, installing a decoder, and tuning it up. The flanges are huge, pizza cutters, so it will only run on code 100 track.

Here's a few pictures of the remotor job. I suppose I should have taken pictures and started a thread but I didn't think of it:

   
   

[doctorwayne]

The flanges on the drivers of this IHC Mogul weren't quite as deep as those on your Big Boy, but deep enough that they didn't look too good.



All of my locomotives are wired so that they'll run without their tender, so I simply connected leads from a power pack in my workshop to the motor of this one (body off).
After setting the throttle at medium, and while holding the locomotive upright in one hand, its drivers turning, I gently applied the face of a cut-off disc in my Dremel to the flanges. Keep the locomotive upright and the disc touching only the bottom of the flange. This allows the cutting residue to simply fall to the workbench rather than into the mechanism. Work only for a few seconds on any one driver, then move to another. This keeps the driver tires from getting too hot and either dropping off the plastic wheels or, even worse, deforming the wheel. Do not allow the edge of the cut-off disc to touch the tire, and keep the pressure light to avoid having the disc shatter. By all means, wear eye protection - it protects you from both shattered discs and the metal filings coming off the flanges.

Wayne

[Schraddel]

Fortunately i am the lucky owner of lathe:


A little too big in size, but it was an one time non recurring opportunity and i decided to buy this used lathe. It was used, but not worn and came with some attachments. So i bought it for the equivalent of three H0 steamers and relinquished to buy these locos.





For turning down deep flanges i made pick up devices which keep hold of the wheel directly. I turned this pick up devices out of aluminium round stock. The bore inside is turned too and must be individual made for each wheel diameter. The trick here is to use the 3° slope of the wheels tread surface. The wheel wedges into the bore, as the diameter of the bore is app. the diameter of the wheel tread halfway between the diameter on the outer edge and the diameter on the inner edge were it descend to the flange.
Slightly set, not ramming, the whole pair of driver ( with a single wheel it will work too) into the bore. It is centered in means of diameter, but it still wobbles because it is not centered in the means of lateral out of true.
To center it let the late turn in the lowest rpms as possible. Here my lathe is equipped with a electronic controller and like an decoder it has a kind of BEMF.
Then push the turning steel carefully and slowly against the wheel flange. In this stage it should not cut, but only slightly pressing against the flange. The effect is the wheel will be centered lateral too. When it is centered and rotating round, then apply the tailstock gently with light pressure only.
Before, you have taken measurements how much material of the flanges have to be turned down. Arrange the turning steel and reduce the flange by cutting from the side. Keep the rpms low and feed only slowly for not overheating. It will take a longer time, but it avoids the melting of plastic wheel centers. The turning steel have to be kept as sharp as an razor blade to enable proper turning at low rpms.
Then shift the set of wheels and turn down the other wheel.
Meanwhile the wheel not fitted into the pick up device is turning and free acessible. Take a sharp file and break the sharp edges at the flange top. Then round and smoothen them out. Especially the transition from the outer flange side to the top of the flange is crucial for a smooth running of the wheels lateron.
Shift again and smoothen out the other wheel.
Control with the NMRA gage or a caliper.

N.B. If traction tires are involved take special care. Sometimes the traction tires may staying mounted, but sometimes they have to be removed before turning. And be aware there is only the thin rim between the outer face of the wheel and the groove for the traction tire. Be very gentle and careful to this kind of wheels.

With this technique the surface areas of the wheel which are running onto the rail will be untouched. Surface finishes also will be kept untouched.





Turned down flanges of a Rivarossi wheel with plastic center. Here it was the goal to make one running loco out of the remains of two locos and get rid of the traction tires. Therefor singular wheels are to be seen.





The result. This 4-8-4 has have had before deeep flanges Märklin Hi Rail style.


Cheers Lutz

Edit: Grammatics

[modelsof1900]

Lutz, great results!
What for a difference seeing NMRA contoured wheels against European NEM wheels with their large flanges! Well done!

[doctorwayne]

Lutz, great results!

I agree, and for anyone who has a lathe (and knows how to use it), that would be the best choice and would offer the best results, too.
I learned the basics of lathe operation many years ago, but don't have enough projects of the type that would require the use of one (or that would justify the financial outlay).

Wayne

[gna]

Well, I'm not sure which is more impressive--Lutz's lathe and machining skills, or his organized, neat and clean work area. I am forced to conclude the photos were staged.

Sadly, I do not have a lathe, but I do have a dremel, so I may follow the good Doctor's remedy. My main line is code 100, so I may call it good enough.

[Schraddel]

Hello,

time for April fooling has passed and it's time to proceed with the little 4-4-0.


The lantern was glued onto it's bracket and this asembly was then fitted onto the smokebox. The wires were soldered and the lantern tested. LED colour tone is Super Golden White here which renders the light of the oil burner fairly well.
The brass coloured parts between the drivers were removed.





A photo from 90° angle. The loco looks more "grown up" and no longer so oversized as before.





Next i took a deep grab in my grabbox. In prehistoric times there may have had been wonderful brass castings available, but not here on the other side of the big pond. So i had to botch up a early Westinghouse brake equipment with parts i found in my grabbox. The cylinders were once parts intended for German freight cars. The brake shoes and hangers also. A bend 0.5mm brass wire poses as push rods, the joint to the brake cylinder is still missing. about how to crank it.
The Westinghouse single stage compressor is from an Prussian T3 (the little 0-6-0 on my April Joke photo ) which was equipped with a better one. Position of compressor and plumbing was taken from several photos of early 4-4-0s.





So it look like on the rails. Added was the visible Part of the balancers between the driving axles.





The other side.


Cheers Lutz