Technology: How Much Is Too Much?
#1
Model railroading has moved rapidly into the hi-tech realm, but is that a good thing or a bad thing?  Obviously, there are advantages to computerising everything, but do they outweigh the disadvantages, or even balance them out?  In my view, the hobby is now like the cellphone - it has gone far beyond its intended purpose is is becoming detrimental in many ways.

I'm a military kid who grow up in post-war G.  Nothing much...an 0-4-0 switcher, a couple of the wagon-top passenger cars, a box car and a tank car, all with the hook system couplers and the European buffers.  An oval of snap-together track, a turnout and a power pack.

I didn't know anything about model trains and neither did my father, so my model train was  favorite toy, put up on the floor of my bedroom and taken down at bedtime, put in a wooden box and stored in my footlocker toy box.  No special treatment.  I didn't know I needed to clean the track, so I never did.  Never lubricated the engine, either.  Used Lincoln logs and dominoes to make my grades.  Took it out whenever I want to run it, snapped the track together and it ran, first time, every time.   I Finally lost track of my train when I graduated and joined the Army, after I brought it back to the States, reversed the transformer, and ran it for years on American 120v current.

Today I constantly read abut problems with keeping track clean, dead spots, shorts, lubricating, checking gauges and myriad other problems, and the issues involved with DCC, just the ones that make it into the magazines, are too numerous to count, not to mention that anything computerized is rapidly headed for obsolescence and in constant need of upgrading.

Yes, it is nice to have sound effects, but I never needed them then and I don't need them now.  

Yes, it is nice to operate multiple trains on a single stretch of track, but my personal railroad empire was never that big, I never did it and I do not miss it.  Yes, I realize that most modelers today are miserable with anything less than two or three hundred square feet, but I grew in military quarters bedrooms and never had that much space, and it was never a problem because my imagination determines the size of my world, not the physical dimensions.

Yes, prototypical realism is vital to many hobbyists, and I respect them for that, but I do not require that from my part of the hobby.  It's about creating a virtual world and seeing it run.  It is not about endlessly troubleshooting and fixing.  That train and track that I constantly enjoyed from 1948 to 1961 was indestructible and unstoppable, and it is difficult to accept that trains today are unable to meet that quality, or that they now require the time, effort and resources to keep them operating that the models of today demand.

I may end up being the last DC modeler on the planet, and that's just fine with me, because although the hobby is about a lot of things,  for me it is ultimately about simply having fun.
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#2
MM,

I signed up to be able to digitally view Model Railroader's archives.  I would rather pay for that than to read a current issue.  I like reading the issues from the 1940s-1960s, because they are exactly what you describe - people making do with stuff they have before there were so many items on the market.  Nobody talks about how Athearn's GP9 had a hood that was too wide.  The last issue I read had a headline about not being a "slave to the prototype".  There were at least three tips in that issue for making rivet details.  People weren't talking about leaving the hobby because of the unreliability of brass track.  

On one hand, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Many folks today seem to be frustrated about either the expense or technological aspects of the hobby.  They are unaware that a used AHM locomotive from the 1970s will run just fine.  They are unaware that you don't have to use DCC.  They are unaware that you don't have to have a huge budget to enjoy this hobby.

On the other hand, I am recognizing that I have aged into the "nostalgia" years.  The hobby has moved towards DCC, sound, cameras, etc because that's what many younger people are into.  Without the technology, they probably would not be interested, and choose another hobby.  So its a balance - enough technology that draws younger folks in, but not too much that out prices and frustrates the average person.

I've considered going DCC many times, but in the end never made much sense for me personally.  I don't like sound.  If I wanted to listen to something when I run trains, I will put on a ball game or music.   I run in the steam era that did not even run headlights during the day.   Multiple locomotives?  It's been a long time since I had a layout that had enough track to to run more than one train at once.  I don't anticipate having such a layout in the future.  The only reason I can see going DCC is if I join a club.
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#3
At work we have sound, DCC and what have you. But on my home layout there is no sound and it is DC. I find the sound annoying myself but each to his own. When I go into my train room it is 1965 forever and I go in there to get away from the modern world. I'm not a Luddite but everything has it's place and tech doesn't belong in my train room. If someone else enjoys all the bells and whistles that's fine for them and I hope they have a good time .
Mike

Sent from my pocket calculator using two tin cans and a string
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#4
This is true throughout the universe. We started off with a 9" B/W TV connected to an antenna on the roof back in 1950. We lived in NJ and needed two antennas, one pointed at Newark, the other at NYC to get four channels. We advanced to a color TV in the 60's, larger screen and in a console. I remember buying a 36" TV around 1999 that took two of us to get onto a stand, but it was still connected to that outdoor antenna, bringing in four or five channels. Now we can get a 75" flat screen connected to a satellite whirling around the earth and we get hundreds of channels, most we pay for but never watch. I'm old school, still have my landline when I want to talk to someone, there are those that would rather go hungry than to give up their cell phones, their fingers banging text messages without even taking a breath.

I used to be able to work on my car, the parts were defined as to what they did, have a problem, replace the part. Need to go somewhere new, grab a paper map. Today's vehicles are run by more computers than were on the first few moon missions. You now have maps that talk to you, buzzers that go off when you stray over a road line, music that comes from those darn satellites, and you can make phone calls without lifting a finger.That's today's world, its call progress. The good thing is that we have choices, we don't have to accept any of that if we don't want to.

The same goes for progress in MRR. I have a quandary, I just unpacked my cars and engines after being packed for a good number of years. I find that most of what I have still have the old Rapido couplers. 70% of my freight cars, and just about all of my engines are dated. Kinda like still watching your old 9" B/W TV when the guy next door just bought his 96" super-screen QLED with Dobly surround sound. So now, do I spend hundreds of dollars and hours upon hours updating those cars and engines, or do I just run them as-is? I have quite a few engines that I spent less than $20 on brand new (a dealer was getting out of the model railroad business). I've got cars that I bought at swap meets for fifty cents or less, does it make sense to upgrade those? Then there's DCC, will I ever run more than one train at a time? I can still do that with DC if I'm careful, and sound, that might be neat running trains with your grandkids, but again, is the economic impact worth it if I get more satisfaction from building things than running trains? Will I even have a group over to run "sessions"? Not likely, so if I'm happy with spending my modeling time using old-fashion technology, so be it.

That's it, progress, you can go with it or not, sometimes you don't have a choice, but it's all suppose to make our lives better.... at a price. In our hobby, we do have choices, I don't plan on updating beyond maybe changing out some couplers on a few of my engines and just keep everything else for display, and I'm happy with what I get out of DC. Like I've said before, I'm in it to build my world, structures and scenery and when I run out of space, I'll just add on and keep going, checking once in a while to be sure I can still run trains if I want to. For those who go with the latest and greatest technology, that's fine, that's what it's there for.
Don (ezdays) Day
Board administrator and
founder of the CANYON STATE RAILROAD
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#5
Irony: updating to DCC in order run narrow gauge trains from the late 1800's! Shades of Westworld!

Generally, the comments are true, but I must point out that we do not have to constantly service and clean and troubleshoot our digital tv's and other items. Can't remember the last time I had to sort out why my truck would't start, either. They just work when we turn them on.

OTH, I will be a big fan of deadrail modeling when it becomes practical for N scale, because it makes a great deal of sense. Of course, I know I'll be long gone before that happens, but...;-]
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#6
(04-10-2021, 12:39 PM)Mountain Man Wrote: Irony: updating to DCC in order run narrow gauge trains from the late 1800's!...
 

Yeah, that's like back to the future...or ahead to the past.

While I am impressed with some technological advances, it seems to me that too much of it is done only because it could be done, rather than needed to be done.

I am not at all a fan of recent automobiles and trucks, and even though my 17 year-old car is in need of some minor repairs, I wouldn't trade it for even the fanciest and most technologically refined vehicle available, even if that deal came with an additional million dollars.  I want a car that needs me to drive it, not one that treats me like an idiot.  I see idiots on the road all the time, and they're so idiotic that even their super-smart vehicles cannot help them.

I don't want appliances that are smarter than me (wouldn't take much, I guess), or ones that record my actions (or in-actions), and especially ones which are so advanced that they're obsolete before you can buy them because a better version has just been introduced.

A couple of years ago, we apparently bought the last available dumb TV, which doesn't listen to- or record us, or make unwanted choices for us, either.
The one in the basement, dating from the '80s, has a better picture and better sound, too, and is much simpler to operate.

While being smug and satisfied to be considered a Luddite, I am, of course, replying to this topic on a computer. Oh! The horror!! Oh! The humanity!!! Misngth 

Wayne
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#7
I share your horror, but while tin cans are still available, I will never find a string long enough to reach all of you!

I am however, proud to say that I use an older version of Windows because it works just fine, and I am in no hurry to "upgrade" anything. I recently refused to purchase a new cellphone - $1200 for the latest model!! ;-0 - because the old one suits me just fine, and I haven't mastered everything it can do....yet.
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#8
(04-10-2021, 02:27 PM)Mountain Man Wrote: I share your horror, but while tin cans are still available, I will never find a string long enough to reach all of you!

I am however, proud to say that I use an older version of Windows because it works just fine, and I am in no hurry to "upgrade" anything.  I recently refused to purchase a new cellphone - $1200 for the latest model!! ;-0   - because the old one suits me just fine, and I haven't mastered everything it can do....yet.

Somehow, when I make a call, somebody takes the other end of my string, finds the string from whoever I want to talk to and ties the two strings together. They're pretty good at it too, do it in seconds and rarely get the wrong strings attached... Awesome 

My concern with not upgrading software is not getting the latest and greatest, but protection from those crazies that roam the Internet hoping that they can catch someone slipping up. A long time ago, criminals used to rob banks or sell swamp land to make a living, but that required a physical presence. Now days, thanks to technology, they can be anywhere in the world, just looking to gain access to your data so they can cash in. Technology has made it so easy to get screwed by some unknown perpetrator. Some versions of the software I use are fifteen and more years old, but the ones that are responsible for my presence on the Internet are up to the minute current.
Don (ezdays) Day
Board administrator and
founder of the CANYON STATE RAILROAD
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#9
This is a great thread. Reminds me why I like this forum. BTW, this "forum" is practically old technology as well. People have moved on to other forms of social media that are more accessible to their smart phones. Facebook groups are great for quick pics, but not good for meaningful discussion.
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#10
Quote: I didn't know I needed to clean the track, so I never did.  Never lubricated the engine, either.  Used Lincoln logs and dominoes to make my grades.  Took it out whenever I want to run it, snapped the track together and it ran, first time, every time.   I Finally lost track of my train when I graduated and joined the Army, after I brought it back to the States, reversed the transformer, and ran it for years on American 120v current.  [/quote]

Not me, I want nothing to do with the crappy trains we used to have.  Sectional track.  Terrible.  Electrical continuity problems, always coming apart.  Horn hook couplers that look horrible.  Cars with terrible detailing and truck mounted couplers.  The old engines had terrible speed control and horrible electrical pick up, two wheels on each side if you were lucky.

[quote] Today I constantly read abut problems with keeping track clean, dead spots, shorts, lubricating, checking gauges and myriad other problems, and the issues involved with DCC, just the ones that make it into the magazines, are too numerous to count, not to mention that anything computerized is rapidly headed for obsolescence and in constant need of upgrading.


Basically dead spots, dirty track, lubricating, equipment, out of gauge track and cars are all issues that have always been there and if you let them happen it doesn't matter whether you are using DC or DCC its the same problem and your railroad will run horribly.  

I've built layouts that operate more than two trains at the same time on DC and I will tell you DCC is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY simpler than that.  Basically on a simple layout the wiring for DCC is EXACTLY the same as it is for DC.  What gets complicated about DCC is when people do things that are not even within the realm of possibility with DC or try to make it complicated.  

The olden days of model railroading weren't all that great, I have no interest in going back to them.
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#11
Dave, it's difficult to decide which side of the DC/DCC comparison best suits your requirements.

My layout is DC, and I have no need for DCC...it offers nothing that I want or need...it's simply an added expense.  In many cases, it also takes-up room in locos and tenders that could otherwise be good locations for added weight, to improve pulling performance.

On the other hand, DCC is probably a good choice for club layouts, where there are multiple operators running multiple trains...and hopefully a working signal system to prevent cornfield meets.

Wayne
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#12
I think the issue is newcomers to the hobby thinking DCC is the only way, yet all they have is a 4x8 or a loop on the carpet. It could be an added expense or frustration that turns them away.
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#13
To all the talk about tin cans and string please see my sig.! Big Grin
Mike

Sent from my pocket calculator using two tin cans and a string
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#14
Let me take you into the (not so) glory 1960's here in Germany with particular importance to model trains, or better said toy trains.
At first you have to be a father of your son to get the social allowance even buying model railroad stuff. There was a time frame of about max. 10 years you were able to do that, a span reaching when your son was 3 years old and able to play with trains to about an age of app. 13 when he lost interest on trains.
Then the yearly time frame when you was allowed to build up and run your train set, reaching from Christmas Eve to exact the date when the christmas tree was removed out of your living room. Even the 4 x 8 panel with fixed tracks, corner tunnel and houses have to be stored away. No chance to run your trains in the attic or the besement. You were declared mental ill by your neighbors if you did that.

Back to purchasing a train set for the first time, for your son of course. There were 3 makers of H0 trains and train sets in Germany then:
Märklin
TRIX EXPRESS
Fleischmann
All declared the make their trains in "H0" and to run on tracks with a gauge of 16,5mm. And at just this point every communatlity ends. All 3 train makers were instead united in incompatibiltiy to each other.
For this you have to make an personal decision in the toy shop which will be determinative for the rest of your life and the life of your son. This decision has a lot of confessional similarity: You have to choose one of the 3 brands! And stay with it for the rest of your life.

Back at home with the train set smuggled into the house like contraband, your 3 years old should not knowing about it. When he is finally in bed and sleeping, you are allowed to unwrap the train set and start building it up.

You were astonished the loco has only 3 speed levels: Fast, faster and even faster. The German ones had a fourth speed level: Still faster.

The days between Christmas and New Year were the preciousest of all, you are in holliday, the train set is built up and you can run trains. Every year the model railroad grews, more rails, turnouts, more cars, a second loco and sometimes all the stuff was fixed onto a 4x8 board. One day your 13 years old tells you, he is far more interested to buy LPs from his favorite rock band as in toy trains.
End of a dream of you have to go illegal. Meaning to become a ousider in your neighborhood; you are the grown up wacky man playing with trains.

That were the good (or not so good) old times of 1960's here. Back to 1965? Never!

[Image: dsc026217akai.jpg]
Running toy trains like this? No, i won't!




[Image: dsc02626ofki6.jpg]
Running with this traditional electrical replacement for a clockwork? Fast, faster, even faster, still faster, ridiculous faster, out of curve flying...(Have a look onto the deeeep flanges which should prevent this). The last speed level is often necessary for seeing the lights of a loco model.
Simply no!



To make the step from toy trains to model trains it takes a lot of one's own initiative. Getting your locos running in DC like the prototype, you have to deal with a lot of mechanical treatments for your stuff. Terms and definitions like: gear ratio reducing, new motors with more civilzed running qualities, reliable current pick up, equalized running gear and some more should not be foreign words to you.

I deal with this stuff. Before i going to convert any loco to DCC oder DCC/Sound, this loco has to run flawless in DC mode. And only then DCC is able topping the performance still more.


Lutz
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#15
(04-10-2021, 05:42 PM)dave1905 Wrote:
Quote: I didn't know I needed to clean the track, so I never did.  Never lubricated the engine, either.  Used Lincoln logs and dominoes to make my grades.  Took it out whenever I want to run it, snapped the track together and it ran, first time, every time.   I Finally lost track of my train when I graduated and joined the Army, after I brought it back to the States, reversed the transformer, and ran it for years on American 120v current.  [/quote]

Not me, I want nothing to do with the crappy trains we used to have.  Sectional track.  Terrible.  Electrical continuity problems, always coming apart.  Horn hook couplers that look horrible.  Cars with terrible detailing and truck mounted couplers.  The old engines had terrible speed control and horrible electrical pick up, two wheels on each side if you were lucky.

[quote] Today I constantly read abut problems with keeping track clean, dead spots, shorts, lubricating, checking gauges and myriad other problems, and the issues involved with DCC, just the ones that make it into the magazines, are too numerous to count, not to mention that anything computerized is rapidly headed for obsolescence and in constant need of upgrading.


Basically dead spots, dirty track, lubricating, equipment, out of gauge track and cars are all issues that have always been there and if you let them happen it doesn't matter whether you are using DC or DCC its the same problem and your railroad will run horribly.  

I've built layouts that operate more than two trains at the same time on DC and I will tell you DCC is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY simpler than that.  Basically on a simple layout the wiring for DCC is EXACTLY the same as it is for DC.  What gets complicated about DCC is when people do things that are not even within the realm of possibility with DC or try to make it complicated.  

The olden days of model railroading weren't all that great, I have no interest in going back to them.

The point I made was that I had no problems, ever.  The problems arose with the current level of technology associated with modeling.
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