Penn Central

[doctorwayne]

This one was on another track, same day as the 276:


Wayne

[Green_Elite_Cab]

If we traded out engines sometime during the trip, or if they hooked another diesel engine to the point prior to us pulling out of the station, I don't remember that sort of a delay, but it certainly could have happened. We traveled at a pretty fast rate of speed and had very few stops along the trip. I'd have to do a lot of checking to determine if Amtrak used a GG1 on any part of the NYC to Boston route in the very early 70's, or if my memory is totally and completely wrong...but I really remember seeing a GG-1 connected to the train we boarded.

No, its totally reasonable to see GG1s up in New Haven territory (in later years, i think E60s became more common on that end). however, the wire ended at New Haven, and Either an F40PH or an E8A took you the rest of the way to boston.

I have a book called "Amtrak Annual 1978-1979" that lists ALL amtrak trains in those years across the country, the power on the train, and which cars are on the train. Since you were on a GG1 pulled train, there is a good chance an E8A pulled you the rest of the way.

I didn't expect to get a good history education about Penn Central on this thread - but it sure is great to read all the information! I can't understand the animosity towards Penn Central though...being a kid spending some years in NY state and NJ, it was common to see PC all over and I didn't really think much about it.

There is a lot of political animosity, because Penn Central was the original "government Bailout", costing millions a day in tax payer money to keep running. In addition, It "blacked out" and eliminated many historic railroads that people loved, and ushered in an age of poor service, and horrific lack of maintenance. Even within the company, the PC was tearing itself apart with "red team Green Team" antics. these are just some issues.

I think these days, many of us young people treat it as a joke, but Sadly that also means little in the way of Penn Central survives, and i can't think of any Penn Central pieces in a museum (maybe one of these surviving GG1s should keep its worm logo....)

[Green_Elite_Cab]

This one was on another track, same day as the 276:


Wayne

Wayne, thats an AWESOME coincidence in that shot. Amtrak 276 was originally Penn Central #4250. Amtrak # 447 WAS Amtrak #277, former Penn Central #4251!

#277 was renumbered to #447 in 1975. if that shot were a year earlier, you'd have two consecutive road numbers. I just happened to notice the pattern in the road numbers when i was looking up a different locomotive.

love that shot.

[Herc Driver]

Thanks for the information...and I'm glad to know I'm not crazy.

I have no memory of the GG-1 power being traded out for an E-8, but that surely could have happened while we were on board.

I'm tempted to get one of the new Kato versions...if nothing more than to keep the PC alive and well on our layout and run with the Amtrak GG1. (Plus, it will give me a few picture possibilities to post for all you PC guys to see.)

[Russ Bellinis]

Herc, I typically try to model prototypically, but one of my favorite locomotives on the Santa Fe was the Blue Goose. In fact the Blue Goose went to the scrappers when the Santa Fe dieselized, but in my world it was saved and restored for use like the 3751. If anyone asks me why, I will tell them it is because they should have saved it!

[Herc Driver]

Well there you go...that sounds perfectly reasonable.

I guess I'm turning into more of a collector/operator rather than an operator/collector. I've realized that when some of these engines are offered, you better pick them up while you can, because they might not be made again for many years...if at all. I've already bought too many engines just because they were a great deal, mainly because I have a hard time passing up saving 50% or more on an engine. I'm trying to be more judicious in my purchases, trying to make a reasonable effort to acquire new equipment when it (1) fits our time period (2) would be run as a museum or excursion train in real life or (3) because the boys and I really want to have it for historical value and finally (4) because the deal is just too good to pass up. My LHS owner is great about marking things down that have sat on the shelves for more than a year. (A few months ago I left the store with two engines - an Atlas and a Kato - buying them for around 65% off MSRP! BTW...he's got a Precision Craft Models E8 in SP colors for under $50 if anyone is interested.) So I'm at that same crossroads about adding a Penn Central E8 to the collection. We don't need it...but we could use it with the GG1 to model that transition period when Amtrak was young and PC was all but finished.

And with all the information I've learned from this thread, I'm even more tempted to get this engine just for the historical significance. How many engines have been made for Nscale in PC colors? Not many. Atlas has done one that I can quickly think of, and now Kato will be making two...the GG1 and E8. (I decided to get the GG1 in Amtrak colors since I have a fair amount of Amtrak in our collection, but if I found the Penn Central GG1 sitting on a store shelf, I'd get it.) Would they run on their own power in the real world...no, I know the catenary system isn't there to support them any more. But on my layout they'd be dragged or pushed by another diesel just to make the boys and I, along with the LPP's that think like we do, pleased to see a historically interesting engine roll through the station. Wouldn't most railfans enjoy seeing a GG-1 in an Amtrak string of engines/cars roll past...just to say you saw one on the rails? Well...a PC E8 isn't quite the head-turner that a GG1 is...but in the black and white PC colors...it would make for an interesting train on the layout.

[railohio]

Atlas has done more than one in N scale in the modern era:

C628
GP7
GP30
GP38
GP38-2
RSD-5
SD9
U25B

Going back to a 1973 AHC ad in Model Railroader I see a half-dozen locomotives in Penn Central:

Atlas GP40
Atlas SD45
Atlas SW1500
Con-Cor EF-70 Box Cab Electric
Rapido FA-1
Trix U28C

Additionally, I remember seeing Trix F9s and Rapido/Arnold GG1s in Penn Central from the same era.

[Herc Driver]

My sincere apologies to Russ...I just realized there was already another thread entitled "Penn Central".

I didn't know I was using the same title and in the future, will be more careful when I name my threads.

- Herc Driver -

[Russ Bellinis]

Not a big deal, Herc. I was just referencing a model a friend of mine did where he took an Athearn r-t-r F7 A & B set that was painted for D&RGW and scrapped off the D&RGW markings and put on the Penn Central mating worms logo. I had never realized that the P.C. had those engines in the orange & silver livery with a PC logo. I would be very surprised if there isn't another thread here with the title Penn Central. I just used that title because I couldn't think of another and thought of Ralph and some of the other PC modelers on here when I started the thread.

[Ralph]

...and we appreciate it!

[Herc Driver]

It was still a "D'oh" moment. Ah well...I'll sign myself up for the remedial thread-naming self-help class.

Meanwhile...back to the Penn Central.

I've noticed that the Kato offering of four passenger cars plus either the GG-1 or E-8 engines does not include a baggage car. Additionally, several pictures on the web show no baggage car, even on the trains that are bound for Chicago. Was a baggage car added later on the route? I'm thinking I'll need to track down a PC or early Phase 1 Amtrak car to pull this off.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

It was still a "D'oh" moment. Ah well...I'll sign myself up for the remedial thread-naming self-help class.

Meanwhile...back to the Penn Central.

I've noticed that the Kato offering of four passenger cars plus either the GG-1 or E-8 engines does not include a baggage car. Additionally, several pictures on the web show no baggage car, even on the trains that are bound for Chicago. Was a baggage car added later on the route? I'm thinking I'll need to track down a PC or early Phase 1 Amtrak car to pull this off.

Its possible the baggage cars were on the end of the train (and maybe not visible in the photograph?). depending on the train we're talking about, the "head end" stuff may actually be trailing (Why bother turning the whole consist around, when you can just slip the locomotives to the other side, especially on double enders like the GG1?).

some small runs wouldn't have baggage cars either. I have a whole set of Penn Central videos, and most trains except the very shortest had some form of baggage car (in fact, many trains were more baggage than coach).

[Herc Driver]

It's been a challenge to understand what the PC was running...since it seems to me, they would run just about anything, anywhere. I've found pictures of old-looking heavy weight passenger cars along with early Amtrak cars. New Amtrak Phase 1 equipment with the last of the PC green and silver cars. Various engines pulling the passenger cars along - normally the GG-1 under the catenary system, but diesel power as well.

I've thought about adding some PC equipment for a while, and this Kato offering of the GG-1 (Amtrak and PC) and the E-8 (Amtrak and PC) along with the early Phase 1 Amtrak and late PC cars fits the bill. One thing for sure...there's sure a lot more to learn about the Penn Central.

[BR60103]

By PC days, what electric locomotives other than GG1s were they running? Gid any of the old boxcabs or (was it) P5s survive that long?
Or this little thing:
   

[Green_Elite_Cab]

By PC days, what electric locomotives other than GG1s were they running? Gid any of the old boxcabs or (was it) P5s survive that long?
Or this little thing:

I don't think your models made it, and they don't look familiar, but they are cool.

The short list of PC Electrics-

GG1 (PRR)
B1 (PRR)
E44/E44A(PRR)
E33 (NH)
E40 (NH EP5 Jet)
S2E (NYC)
T3 (NYC)
P2(NYC)


As far as the PRR side of Penn Central goes, the E44 rectifiers pretty much put down ALL other PRR electric classes except for the GG1. Some of the B1 class boxcab yard switchers survived, but they didn't last long. Attesting to the superior engineering of the GG1, it was the only unit close to competing with an E44. All other PRR electrics (FF2s, P5A and P5A Modifieds, O1s, and the experimental GE and Baldwin/Westinghouse units) were all replaced by the E44, which didn't require helper service on the corridor, and could replace multiple P5s with just one E44. A Lone L6A (2-8-2) boxcab nearly made it to the Penn Central years, and was even renumbered in anticipation of it, but it was scrapped in 1967. (interesting note, there were more L6As, but they were all re-purposed into Boeing B29 Superfortresses for WWII while under construction)

The New Haven had only "modern" electric designs to provide. The McGinnis years saw the near demise of electric railroading north of New York City. If it weren't for New Havens extreme commuter traffic (and the fact that Electric multiple units were the only cars available in mass), the New Haven would have torn down the wire. The New Haven scrapped just about all its Electric locomotives. It was only in later years that New Haven leadership realized what a terrible idea it was to stop electric freight, but it was too late, and the 12 former Virgininan/N&W E33s were not enough to save the failing railroad. The only Electric to survive through the McGinnis years were a set of brand new EP5s (reclassed E40s by the PC), but they frequently overheated and by the end of the Penn Central, only two were in working order, and had their third rail shoes and extra pantograph removed. these last two, 4977 and 4973, were used in freight service between New Jersey and Harrisburg, PA. the rest of the E40s quite literally burnt themselves out. those two survivors were retired shortly after entering service for Conrail.

The New York Central side of the PC was the only railroad with a boxcab to actually survive all the way through penn central, as well as owned the oldest locomotives on Penn Central's (and later Conrail's) roster, the S2Es, which had been working switching passenger trains in New York since 1906. many of these units actually made it to Conrail, and were in fact the last "regular" electric engine in use on conrail, being retired in 1982, a full year after every other electric on Conrail's roster was either scrapped or in storage. The S2Es outlasted even the GG1s except for a small handful of Gs that trudged on to 1983 on NJ Transit (and even so, the S2E has been running since 1906, the Gs didn't even come to be for at least another 22 years at the oldest).

A single former NYC T3 Boxcab (B-B+B-B) made it through Penn Central to the Conrail years, but was transferred to Amtrak on the first day of Conrail. Some of New York Central's 4-6-6-4 P-Motor Boxcabs also survived long enough to receive the black paint and mating worms of the Penn Central. Both of these NYC units were regulars on NYC's former commuter lines to Grand Central station, and thats where they spent most of their time on the PC. These were purely passenger engines,