Steam...

[Russ Bellinis]

Here are a few locomotives (off the top of my head) that may interest you:
-Southern Pacific 4449...aka the Daylight...which was painted up for BNSF during one of the times she pulled BNSF employee appreciation specials. She is available in every scale on the cheap side of brass
-AT&SF 3751...San Bernadino, CA's finest resident. I believe she's been used on the BNSF EASs....a 4-8-4...available in plastic/diecast

Perhaps the best candidate after the 4449 is IHC's 2-6-0. While they offer here in 200 or so roadnames, she's actually a model of a Southern Pacific locomotive. One of them is running in Colorado. She's a cheap model...but looks great and runs well.

WOW, Thank you for all the info. I have a few questions....

In regards to the Southern Pacific 4449...aka the Daylight, is that the same one I posted pictures of made by Broadway Limited? I like the black look of that engine.

Next question, the AT&SF 3751...San Bernadino, CA's finest resident, what is this? You said available in plastic/diecast, by who?

You mentioned you own a Bachmann engine. I do not have anything from them. What are they like for details and equiped with? I am looking for DCC, sound, smoke, good runner and a lot of DETAILS!! Brass is to much so that gives you an idea of what prices I am looking for.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It is appreciated!!!

The S.P. 4449 is currently residing in Portland Oregon except when used to pull an excursion. Apparently it was painted all black during WW2, so Broadway Limited and Bachmann have both produced it in a black scheme as a "war baby" version. It's normal paint scheme is the red-orange-black Daylight passenger scheme. In 1976 the locomotive was painted red-white-& blue when it pulled the western leg of the American Freedom Train.

3751 is a Santa Fe 4-8-4. It was restored in San Bernardino, Ca. and was kept for a while in a surplus building left over from the closing of the Kaiser Steel mill in Fontana, Ca. The last time I saw it, it was being kept on one of the turntable leads at Redondo Junction in the Los Angeles Amtrak yard. I don't know if the building that it was originally stored in was demolished for new construction or is being used for something else or what the situation was there. It was the first of the Santa Fe Northerns and the only accurate model of it that I know of is the one by Broadway Limited. By the way, in the 4th quarter 2008 issue of the "Warbonnet," the Santa Fe Railway Modeling & Historical Society's official publication, there is a write up of the ongoing process of restoring ATSF 2926 which was the last of the Santa Fe Northerns. It is being restored by the New Mexico Steam Locomotive and Railroad Historical Society in Albuquerque with a goal of having it ready to run and participate in the New Mexico bicentennial celebration in 2012. They plan to use it in excursion service on the New Mexico State owned trackage from Belen North through Albuquerque, Las Vegas and Raton Pass to Trinidad, Colorado according to the article. They also plan to bring the 3751 from California to double head the two "book ends" over Raton Pass. This means that someone having a Bachmann 3785 Northern could renumber it to 2926 and have a prototypically correct running excursion locomotive in the future.

One last recommendation, I would forgo smoke in an ho scale locomotive. The smoke is made by burning oil in an electric heater hidden in the front of the boiler. One of the guys in the modular club tried using the smoke generator in a BLI locomotive model and melted the smoke box. BLI replaced the locomotive for him, but he hasn't tried smoke since. We have also found in the club when we have set up at shows next to the large scale or the Lionel O-scalers that the smoke deposits oil all over our tracks and makes constant track cleaning a necessary chore to keep trains running on our ho scale modular layout. In addition the smoke doesn't even look realistic.

[nkp_174]

One last recommendation, I would forgo smoke in an ho scale locomotive. The smoke is made by burning oil in an electric heater hidden in the front of the boiler. One of the guys in the modular club tried using the smoke generator in a BLI locomotive model and melted the smoke box. BLI replaced the locomotive for him, but he hasn't tried smoke since. We have also found in the club when we have set up at shows next to the large scale or the Lionel O-scalers that the smoke deposits oil all over our tracks and makes constant track cleaning a necessary chore to keep trains running on our ho scale modular layout. In addition the smoke doesn't even look realistic.

I second this. Being smoke equipped isn't a problem, but I wouldn't add the oil that you use to cause it to smoke!

[LynnB]

Wow great pics. I might add the Bachmann dcc decoders are ok but... put it this way I generally use them for testing after I've wired up for dcc, I find the Lenz gold decoders are very good and very afordable and I generally use them for the steam engines that I don't intend to have sound in.

[Tom]

To further the comments on Bachmann DCC Decoders, I notice now that Bachmann is now offering some of their steam locomotives in HO with Tsunami Sound Decoders from Soundtraxx. NIIIIIIIICE!

[pgandw]

To further the comments on Bachmann DCC Decoders, I notice now that Bachmann is now offering some of their steam locomotives in HO with Tsunami Sound Decoders from Soundtraxx. NIIIIIIIICE!

Unfortunately, it's not a full Tsunami; it's a dummied-down version made specifically for Bachmann, and not available for separate sale. While most of the major features of the Tsunami are retained there are specific features/CVs that are disabled in the Bachmann version (I don't have a full comparison handy, and of course neither Bachmann nor Soundtraxx are eager to publish the differences). Still, from all I hear the Bachmann Tsunami decoder is a great improvement over previous Bachmann decoders. And you gain good sound, while the earlier Bachmann decoders had none.

my thoughts, your choices
Fred W

[nkp_174]

Unfortunately, it's not a full Tsunami; it's a dummied-down version made specifically for Bachmann, and not available for separate sale. While most of the major features of the Tsunami are retained there are specific features/CVs that are disabled in the Bachmann version (I don't have a full comparison handy, and of course neither Bachmann nor Soundtraxx are eager to publish the differences).

Interesting.

As far as the sound quality, the tsunami is still the only 16bit sound decoder and therefore has the best quality of sound, correct? That being said, I do really like the LokSound in my Galloping Geese. Does the Bachmann version still have a comparable quality of sound to normal Tsunamis...but with less users mods available (such as using an N&W whistle on a GS4)?

[COMBAT]

The 3751 you'd like is probably BLIs. [url]http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/AT_SF_4_8_4_HO-1852-1.html
[/url] This is a blueline loco, so you need to pop a decoder into the socket. It comes equipped with sound.

Bachmann standard makes one that is DCC equipped. (I don't know if they one sound equipped). http://www.ehobbies.com/bac50803.html?ut...gn=froogle
It is numbered for a later class of 4-8-4s than the 3751. Old Bachmann steam engines were not very good. Throughout the 1990s, they worked to move their line from being poor runners into first class models. The 4-8-4s of the end of the decade looked like the engines from the start of the decade, but ran fairly well (though they didn't pull that great). Their Spectrum 2-8-0 launched the modern era of steam locomotive models...being the best detailed, smoothest running, and best puller of any steam locomotive in plastic up to that point. This is not a spectrum locomotive, and accordingly, doesn't have that same level of detail. It is probably the budget option between the two.

The Daylight from Precision Craft: http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/...764-1.html
PCM is the corporate sibling of BLI.
Bachmann offers her in post-war black...which is important, because it is the easiest to convert to the BNSF scheme she wore. This locomotive is acceptably detailed and runs okay...although I'd suspect the PCM version is better. If I really wanted her painted up for BNSF, and didn't want to repaint a locomotive, I'd get one of Bachmann's, use a pencil eraser to remove the tender's lettering, add stripes from Woodland scenic dry transfers, and drop a logo onto the tender.http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-50203
MTH, in O scale, is the only model of her factory painted as BNSF 4449.
Here is a photo gallery of BNSF 4449: http://www.photosbystevenjbrown.com/stea...elite.html

I love the link to the pictures you posted. Very, VERY nice. I also like this engine, http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/...852-1.html the details are nice and so is the prices. It also lists the engine as Recommended Minimum Radius: 18 in... Only issue is the Suethe Smoke Unit Compatible, meaning that I have to buy and add it to the unit. Not something I want to mess with. The decoder install is not a big deal. I also am sure that I need the engine to have smoke now. It adds so much to the engine. It makes it look like its working.

While I do like the paint and the BNSF part of this engine is it converted to oil now? http://www.mthhotrains.com/Gs4.asp To me that adds realism to a modern layout. The engine would have been modernized just like they really have now a days. However, the engine you posted has much more detail. Not because its better but because its different.

What a Pain in the but I am....

Thank you for your continued advice, we are getting closer to a choice, that I am sure of.

[Tom]

The 3751 you'd like is probably BLIs. [url]http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/AT_SF_4_8_4_HO-1852-1.html
[/url] This is a blueline loco, so you need to pop a decoder into the socket. It comes equipped with sound.

Bachmann standard makes one that is DCC equipped. (I don't know if they one sound equipped). http://www.ehobbies.com/bac50803.html?ut...gn=froogle
It is numbered for a later class of 4-8-4s than the 3751. Old Bachmann steam engines were not very good. Throughout the 1990s, they worked to move their line from being poor runners into first class models. The 4-8-4s of the end of the decade looked like the engines from the start of the decade, but ran fairly well (though they didn't pull that great). Their Spectrum 2-8-0 launched the modern era of steam locomotive models...being the best detailed, smoothest running, and best puller of any steam locomotive in plastic up to that point. This is not a spectrum locomotive, and accordingly, doesn't have that same level of detail. It is probably the budget option between the two.

The Daylight from Precision Craft: http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/...764-1.html
PCM is the corporate sibling of BLI.
Bachmann offers her in post-war black...which is important, because it is the easiest to convert to the BNSF scheme she wore. This locomotive is acceptably detailed and runs okay...although I'd suspect the PCM version is better. If I really wanted her painted up for BNSF, and didn't want to repaint a locomotive, I'd get one of Bachmann's, use a pencil eraser to remove the tender's lettering, add stripes from Woodland scenic dry transfers, and drop a logo onto the tender.http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-50203
MTH, in O scale, is the only model of her factory painted as BNSF 4449.
Here is a photo gallery of BNSF 4449: http://www.photosbystevenjbrown.com/stea...elite.html

I love the link to the pictures you posted. Very, VERY nice. I also like this engine, http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/...852-1.html the details are nice and so is the prices. It also lists the engine as Recommended Minimum Radius: 18 in... Only issue is the Suethe Smoke Unit Compatible, meaning that I have to buy and add it to the unit. Not something I want to mess with. The decoder install is not a big deal. I also am sure that I need the engine to have smoke now. It adds so much to the engine. It makes it look like its working.

While I do like the paint and the BNSF part of this engine is it converted to oil now? http://www.mthhotrains.com/Gs4.asp To me that adds realism to a modern layout. The engine would have been modernized just like they really have now a days. However, the engine you posted has much more detail. Not because its better but because its different.

What a Pain in the but I am....

Thank you for your continued advice, we are getting closer to a choice, that I am sure of.

The GS4 and the ATSF 4-8-4's you mentioned are oil burners.

I think you'd be very happy with both of those choices, however, just as a side, I would strongly suggest against using any kind of a smoke unit in your steamer. It works by burning a light oil that leaves an oily residue all over your tracks (the smoke fluid is deposited from above into the stack and onto the smoke unit, the remainder then drips down all over the bottom of the smoke box and running gear) making your tracks an oily mess that in turn promotes grime, dirt and dust making track cleaning a necessity a LOT more often while inhibiting the pleasure of a fine running layout with the rest of your trains, and when it burns out of the stack, it still sprays a fine mist that covers everything around the tracks in a fine film of oil. If you're like me and have styrofoam as part of your scenery, it can also eat into the foam eventually. I have a few spots on my steepest grade where the foam, even though it is covered with a layer of latex based spackle (the layout is made to be portable) is staring to noticeably erode. It never looks prototypical anyway, as it is a fine whisp of smoke that resembles a burning cigarette and looks NOTHING like real steam locomotive exhaust. It is too light, and too whispy to look even close to real. And unless you're really running full throttle with it (at way too fast a speed usually), it barely even appears at that.

A really cool aside that I just thought about since you are running a modern railroad with a steam program, don't forget to add a few fire trucks nearby to help quench the steamers HUGE thirst for water, I always thought it was neat to see the UP 844 or 3985 roll into a small town and the local FD Pumper truck comes out and fills the tender for them with water. That'd make a neat little conversation piece to model, as well as a fuel oil tank truck ready to pump oil into the tender for fuel. Also, you might want to do up a service truck ("chase" vehicle") with company logos on the door, tool boxes and a ladder rack on the rear for servicing and lubricating the engine at service stops. Don't forget to hang "Blue flag" signs on the rear with the ladder, as you have to protect your steam crew ehn serviceing the locomotive.

Just some friendly advice on smoke though, it sounds neat, and seems like a cool idea, but I'm sure others would agree, the benefits pale in comparison to the problems that it creates usually.

Again, do whatever makes you happy, it's your railroad, your call.

Let us know what you decide, now I'm really curious.

[nkp_174]

Oil burners...

Most locomotives since the mid 1870s have been either oil burners or coal. Not all that many engines have been converted to oil...usually those whose operators don't want to have to deal with having a crane or conveyor to load coal. The decision to use oil or coal historically was more of a geographical than technological choice. Today, it is a convenience decision.

The 4449 was built as an oil burner. I believe the 3751 was as well. On the contrary, the well known eastern excursion locomotives 611, 765, 614, and 4501 have always burned coal. Some railroads used both coal and oil...but typically in different locations. The Southern Pacific's cab forward 2-8-8-4s which were used in the Sierras were oil burners...but their cab normal 2-8-8-4s which ran in New Mexico were coal burners.

A notable example of a locomotive converted to burn oil and then back again would be the Eureka & Palisades #4. This is the engine which someone earlier in the thread mentioned as belonging to the Durango and Silverton (it doesn't). While she has recently become well known from her visits to Durango and Chama, she was actually in sorry shape 20+ years ago. Her owner, Las Vegas attorney Dan Markoff, restored her to her as built appearance...and to burning wood (which was an antiquated fuel choice when she was built in the mid-1870s). She also has two surviving kin...one at Sacramento and one in Washington DC.

The Colorado & Southern narrow gauge of Colorado was a 3' gauge subsidiary of the Burlington. The road did not have any coal on the line after 1910, and converted one coal burner to oil to see if there would be any cost savings. This lone oil burner ran alongside coal burners throughout the 1930s. It wasn't successful enough to convert any other locomotives, but not unsuccessful enough to be converted back to coal.

Another interesting tidbit is that the Promontory point replicas of the 119 and Jupiter were built 30 years ago as oil burners. Apparently, this caused some problems and they were then rebuilt to burn the fuels of the original 119 and Jupiter of 1869...coal and wood respectively.

[COMBAT]

It is intersting you say that about the smoke. I watched a video of the smoke here, <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://extranet.mth-railking.com/videos/see2.asp?show=80st12252v&size=big">https://extranet.mth-railking.com/video ... v&size=big</a><!-- m -->, I am aware that the smoke unit shown is for MTH <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mthhotrains.com/Gs4.asp">http://www.mthhotrains.com/Gs4.asp</a><!-- m --> but I was impressed. Even though it is not realisitic to what it really looks like thats a good thing. Can you imagine having that on your layout. LOL! It also says the engine has three smoke out puts. The oil thing concerns me. Has anyone else had this issue with smoke? Its something I never heard of happening. Thank you for the warnings!

[Tom]

It is intersting you say that about the smoke. I watched a video of the smoke here, <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://extranet.mth-railking.com/videos/see2.asp?show=80st12252v&size=big">https://extranet.mth-railking.com/video ... v&size=big</a><!-- m -->, I am aware that the smoke unit shown is for MTH <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mthhotrains.com/Gs4.asp">http://www.mthhotrains.com/Gs4.asp</a><!-- m --> but I was impressed. Even though it is not realisitic to what it really looks like thats a good thing. Can you imagine having that on your layout. LOL! It also says the engine has three smoke out puts. The oil thing concerns me. Has anyone else had this issue with smoke? Its something I never heard of happening. Thank you for the warnings!

Yeah, I agree, that is very cool. But did you notice the balls of smoke falling to the ground next to the engine as it chuffed out of the stack? That was where you get the rain of oil. The balls of smoke that appear to "clump" and fall to the ground is a glob of oil.

THose MTH's are NIIIIICE though.

[Russ Bellinis]

Can you get to a train show where modular layouts are operating? Particularly ones using either large scale trains or Lionel and MTH hi-rail? If you stand next to an operating layout with numerous smoke units in operation you can smell the air pollution first hand, and then ask yourself, "Do I really want that in my train room?" You can also talk to guys trying to run ho or n-scale next to the "smokers" and see what they have to say about the track cleaning problems they encounter. I would also be very wary about installing a Suethe smoke unit in a BLI locomotive. As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, one of the modular club members melted the smoke box on a BLI steam engine when he tried to use the smoke unit. BLI replaced the locomotive for him under warranty. The fact that they are not offering the locomotive with a Suethe unit installed may be a way to avoid warranty issues if you install the Suethe unit in your locomotive and have the smoke box melt down.

[nkp_174]

Another thing to consider with smoke...

The classic image is of a steam locomotive billowing out black smoke.

In truth, black smoke is typically a sign of a poor fireman. White smoke is what you are supposed to see. Further, if you watch enough videos, you'll notice that locomotives do not billow smoke all the time...sometimes there is practically no smoke. In the 765 pictures I took a couple years ago, there is not a single picture of black smoke...and a few with almost no smoke.

[Russ Bellinis]

Another thing to consider with smoke...

The classic image is of a steam locomotive billowing out black smoke.

In truth, black smoke is typically a sign of a poor fireman. White smoke is what you are supposed to see. Further, if you watch enough videos, you'll notice that locomotives do not billow smoke all the time...sometimes there is practically no smoke. In the 765 pictures I took a couple years ago, there is not a single picture of black smoke...and a few with almost no smoke.

Sometimes the fireman would throw sand into the fire to clean out the flues. It would then belch heavy black smoke. I suspect the sand loosened carbon from the flues which then produced the black smoke, but I don't know for sure.

[COMBAT]

Hmm interesting about the smoke. I dont know anyone who has an engine that does smoke or I would check it out in person.

I did rewatch the video from MTH and paid closer attention to the smoke "falling". I didnt see what you guys are talking about. Maybe I just dont know what to look for. I didnt notice any oil any where on the loco itself and I would assume there would be some somewhere? The smoke units you guys are talking about, are they the same ones that MTH and such are using? The newer, well I assume newer ones?

I also realize the smoke doesnt look as real as it could, should ect but it adds some form of realism. I guess even if I only use it a few times like when making a video or something it would be worth having. It isnt something I would run all the time.

I have the option to buy a BlueLine AT&SF 4-8-4 with dcc decoder installed and shipped Total: $199.95. No smoke! I just cant do it. I have to have that option.

Besides MTH making the Daylight which has most of what I want, just not the right style nowbecause I have grown to like the pipes ect shown on the engines, who else makes a smoke installed engine?
I mean this is a good looking engine though.... <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/507-8031181">http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/507-8031181</a><!-- m -->

I did not find any Broadway Limited smoke installed engines. Not that are out yet.

No Proto and they dont look like they are greatly detailed, well the ones I saw anyways.

Nothing from Atlas that I could find.

Athearn didnt have the right stuff.

Bachmann had some stuff but no smoke.....

Seems that only leaves two companies. Braodway or Mikes. Broadway has some stuff I really like but I have to add my own smoke, any one ever done that? Mike has it all done but doesnt have the perfect engine I want. Maybe someone should just me and this will all be over. Thank you for your continued help as I narrow the search and continue to hope the one is out there.