Scratchbuilding Advice

[scubadude]

Thanks for all the replies,guys I knew you would all come through. Sorry for the delay in responding, it was back to the dive shop after being snowed and iced in for the last few days. Weather dudes say more coming Wed night....is this Dallas or Denver??

I will try all suggestions starting with taking a lot of time working up drawings. Allan is supposed to give me a CD with many pictures from all angles he took himself several years ago before the place started falling down. He should have enough to get somewhat an accurate rendering.

I will mock-up with cardboard. Plan to use the Grandt Line windows and doors, close enough and safer than making my own windows. I like Galen's and biL's ideas of using some screen material. I plan to do this in wood, mostly because I like working w/wood better than styrene, especially when gluing. My lungs don't really care for plastic glue. I do have a lot of latitude with accuracy, but I will attempt to be as true to the pictures as I can.

Besides a lot of #11's for the knife, I will buy some sort of chopper to make the cuts easier and straighter. Best part of the whole deal is Allan has an account at the LHS and I can charge all materials!!!

Thanks again for the advice, PLEASE keep it coming, I need all the help I can get. I will post pics of all progress starting with the drawings as soon as I get started....

[MasonJar]

I plan to do this in wood, mostly because I like working w/wood better than styrene, especially when gluing. My lungs don't really care for plastic glue.

If you don't like the "standard" styrene glues (i.e. solvents), you might try Microscale's "Micro Weld". It is for styrene, but advertised as safe and non-toxic. Despite claims on the bottle, it is not quite as fast as solvent-based types. But judging by the smell it has a citrus base - it smells like hand cleaner.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MI-6&Category_Code=FINPROD&Product_Count=4">http://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/mer ... ct_Count=4</a><!-- m -->

Andrew

[doctorwayne]

I would've used styrene (a better bond with the plastic doors and windows) and much easier to work with than wood. The finished product is a lot more stable, too, and won't fall apart after several years on the layout. However, since you're used to working with wood, you may enjoy it more, if only for the familiarity.

You mentioned in the initial post that it's meant to sit atop a mountain, which suggests to me that this "signature" structure isn't going to be a foreground model, but merely one that's highly visible. Do you plan on scaling it down (not selective compression) to suggest distance? If so, you first need to decide the scale in which you're going to work.

I won't give any suggestions on construction - I've built wooden structures in the past and found it not to my liking: too slow, too imprecise, to impermanent, etc., etc.
However, if you're building it in full-HO scale, a good material for window screens is silk screening. It's very easy to cut (knife or scissors), can be coloured with markers (paint doesn't work so well ), and you may be able to get enough scraps from a screen printing shop to do the whole structure for free. The material is very fine...


...and would probably keep out the HO scale bugs if the screen's frame was a better fit.

Wayne

[cnw1961]

Have a looks at the Tichy Train Group windows. They are as good as the Grandt Line windows, but much cheaper. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://tichytraingroup.com/">http://tichytraingroup.com/</a><!-- m -->

[jim currie]

if you are planning to make it full scale size it is going to be a large building, attached is the only think i could find that looks close to the size of the wonderland that i have drawings of the advice of compressing it might apply, though it is different i think the size is close to the same its 119ft 6 inches, in real inches its over 15&1/2 inches , the other thing is it was in a national park and the park service had it torn down you might contact the park service or the company that tore it down to see if there are any drawings or measurments .
i will also second Doc's advise on using plastic i have built a bunch of wood structures and after a few years things start to break down and the wood can shrink or swell causing additional trips to the work bench, if you have trouble with the slovent vapores you might think of building in a airbrush booth , there venting the fumes awav from you.
I'll also second CNW's advise on using tichy windows and doors they are cheeper free shipping on orders of over 25$ and a discount on orders over 50$ and also are of a different styreen that is easer to modify them.
you can also order derect from evergreen no frills but they sell 12 by 24 inch sheets which would mean less splicing.
jim

[scubadude]

More snow and ice today here in DFW, ice is pretty thick on the roads, so I'll close the dive shop and stay home to work on stuctures. :mrgreen: Might even start trying my hand at sketching preliminary drawings of Wonderland.
More good advice and thoughts....biggest reason I am leaning toward working with wood is because I enjoy it more so than styrene. Also I thought it would obviously look more "woody" once stained and painted. Although I have seen a lot of styrene work here on BB that looks "woody"...Wayne and Gary have proven that. Even wearing a mask, I seem to have allergic like reactions to most CA and even the old-school Testors model glue we used as kids. Heavy sanding of the styrene gets to me as well. I didn't know that wood and glue have long-term problems...hmmmmm....

I like the idea of sizing it down a bit to give some forced perspective. I'll go over to Allan's this weekend and see exactly where the footprint is going to be in relation to the layout. With his permission, I'll snap a couple of pics of the area to post here. I have no idea how to down size from HO...is there some type of formula to use for measurements, or is it simply eye-balling??? hock:

Good stuff, guys, thanks.....

[SP1]

I have no idea how to down size from HO...

There is no formula, its rather try and error. I suggest getting the windows and doors asap. Place them on a blank sheet of paper and draw the building around them. That way you can find out easily what looks convincing and what doesnt.

[MasonJar]

I like the idea of sizing it down a bit to give some forced perspective. I'll go over to Allan's this weekend and see exactly where the footprint is going to be in relation to the layout. With his permission, I'll snap a couple of pics of the area to post here. I have no idea how to down size from HO...is there some type of formula to use for measurements, or is it simply eye-balling??? hock:

Good stuff, guys, thanks.....

The simplest way to do this is to build something in a smaller scale. The next smallest from HO (1:87) is N (1:160), and many of the parts you'd need (like windows and doors) should be available in N scale. This could work for you (or your friend) if the layout lends itself to sightlines that can be controlled. You'll also have to downsize things like trees, vehicles, roads, and the distance increases from teh viewer so as to arrive at N scale in a not-so-obvious-fashion.

I think that doctorwayne has a farm near his Indian Line that is N scale. There should be some pictures available.

EDIT - Here's Wayne's forced perspective corner. The "structures" appear to be N scale cows, but it gives you an idea:

[albumimg]670[/albumimg]

2nd EDIT - Here's a previous thread on the topic with other pictures and discussion: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1292&hilit=forced+perspective">viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1292&hilit=forced+perspective</a><!-- l -->

The other thing to consider is selective compression that would make the hotel smaller, but still retain the characteristics so it is recognizable. This might include reducing the height (e.g. 5 stories to 4, not applicable in your case) or reducing width (e.g. 6 windows across instead of 10).

Both these techniques can be employed together in cases where illusion of distance is wanted, but space does not allow for a full-"next scale down" model.


Andrew

[MasonJar]

PS...

Here's my chosen hotel - the former Highland Inn in Algonquin Park. Got a partly built model of it several years ago, but have not done anything further with it. One day, it will get its own module set that includes the station and boat house / pavilion on the waterfront.

[albumimg]3510[/albumimg]

The above image shows the hotel in the 1940s or thereabouts. A road (Hwy 60) was built through Algonquin Park in the 1930s as a make work (now we call it economic stimulus) project.

Here's what you could do in the 1910s through 30s. Grand Trunk was the original builder (1908) and owner before being absorbed into Canadian National in the early 1920s.

[albumimg]3508[/albumimg]
[albumimg]3507[/albumimg]
[albumimg]3511[/albumimg]

Demolished by the Government in 1958 or so.

Andrew

[P5se Camelback]

Wowie Zowie!

A 17 pound Lake Trout!

I'll bet that was one helluva fight!

I'd heard they grow big up there where the water is cold!

Sure 'nuff ... looks like they do!

[nkp_174]

I must agree with the comments regarding the wonders of styrene and a NWSL Chopper. Since you are using Grandt Line windows and doors, this will be far, far easier than you think...just a little time consuming.

In the second photo you posted, you'll notice that there are roof supports and a railing. Should you choose to scratch build these, a Chopper would be invaluable. If you use commercial parts, then you won't even need a chopper.

Step 1, scale that photo. Use the windows and roof heights to approximate the height. Then use this to calculate the length of the structure. I'd want the second view to be visible from the top of the mountain. Should it only be viewable from this angle, there would be no point in spending time and $$$ working on the rear portions. If the building isn't too large, then use your approximation. If it is too large, then reduce the width (such as cutting the building in half and only building the left hand side). If it is far enough back and forced perspective, consider N-scale for the construction.

Step 2, perform a quantity take off: order every window, door, piece of siding, railing, etc that you need to complete it by counting up the number in your sketch or the portion of the building that you are building.

Step 3, check the window and door dimensions once they arrive and adjust the building size to keep the same overall appearance.

Step 4, mark out the window locations in pencil. Use a machinist square and a DULL X-acto blade to perform any cutting. The reason for this is simple: new blades will go wherever they want to go while dull ones go where you want them to go. Make the cuts in several passes...not one hard pass. For the windows, cut them out slightly smaller than they need to be and enlarge them with either a jeweler's file or a cut-down emery board. DON'T glue them in yet.

Step 5, once the main walls are cut out, add framing behind them...especially at the corners...gluing it flush against where the pieces will come together. This is the point to decide if you want an interior...but I'd recommend that relatively little in this department goes a very long way if it is some distance from the front of the layout...add some curtains, people, a few interior walls and lights. Test fit everything!

Step 6, paint the walls inside and out. paint the windows a contrasting color. I highly recommend priming model, then painting it an off black, and then lightly coat it in the desired color until the desired color is achieved. Install the windows being cautious to prevent the plastic cement from touching any exposed paint.

Step 7, assemble it and touch up the paint.

Here's a photo showing both the value in painting prior to final assembly and the merits of a NWSL Chopper:

That car was built with resin castings produced from my 100% scratch built styrene masters...most of the cuts were performed on a chopper. The color separation between the windows and car body were obtained by painting the parts prior to gluing the windows in place.

The roof (specifically the clerestory) and window masters were built with parts cut to length using a NWSL Chopper. Here's an example of the master roof frame, the clerestory is perfectly straight thanks to the precision obtained with proper use of a Chopper:


And here's an example of window parts being cut with my Chopper:


For my recommendation of using primer and multiple, light coats of paint:

These two styrene cars were each painted with successive thin coats of: primer, foundation, rail brown, grimy black, and then oxide red. Each coat was given at least a couple days to cure...but distressed with a fiberglass scratch eraser about 30min after painting. The decals stand out on the gondola as they were in the process of drying when I took the photo (prior to being dull coated and weathered).

The most difficult aspect of scratch building isn't the actual work...for it is nothing more than measuring, cutting, filing, gluing, and painting...the difficult part is deciding what to build, how you want to do it, and the keeping with it until it is done.

I suggest building a small building first...perhaps a shed in your back yard. Remember that you can always measure parts of your own home to get a feel for dimensions. Try to think in terms of sub-assemblies to keep the project manageable (the front porch posts and railing...the main building walls...the shelter to the left...the main steps...the roofs).

Michael

[jim currie]

The simplest way to do this is to build something in a smaller scale. The next smallest from HO (1:87) is N (1:160), and many of the parts you'd need (like windows and doors) should be available in N scale. This could work for you (or your friend) if the layout lends itself to sightlines that can be controlled. You'll also have to downsize things like trees, vehicles, roads, and the distance increases from teh viewer so as to arrive at N scale in a not-so-obvious-fashion.





since your scratch building there is the forgotten scale of TT 1:120, i think that Possum Valley Models have TT scale parts for scratching.
jim

[doctorwayne]

Actually, you can build to any scale you want . One of those three-sided architect's scales can be useful for that, but you can arbitrarily set any measurement as a scale foot. Make sure to select windows which "look right" with whatever scale you choose.

Wayne

[Sumpter250]

I would've used styrene (a better bond with the plastic doors and windows) and much easier to work with than wood. The finished product is a lot more stable, too, and won't fall apart after several years on the layout. However, since you're used to working with wood, you may enjoy it more, if only for the familiarity.
I've built wooden structures in the past and found it not to my liking: too slow, too imprecise, to impermanent, etc., etc.
However, if you're building it in full-HO scale, a good material for window screens is silk screening. It's very easy to cut (knife or scissors), can be coloured with markers (paint doesn't work so well ), and you may be able to get enough scraps from a screen printing shop to do the whole structure for free. The material is very fine...
...and would probably keep out the HO scale bugs if the screen's frame was a better fit. Wayne

I'll not question doctorwayne's model building ability, it is superb.

What I will do, is offer my own personal experiences with both wood, and styrene......sort of a "front yard back yard".
He and I have experienced different "results", for whatever reasons.
Wood: Still one of my favorite materials to work with. Slow?, yes ! But doesn't have to be "tricked into looking like" wood, and for me, produces a better looking model of a wood structure. Imprecise ?, yes, and one of the reasons building with it is slow. Precision in wood has to be coaxed out of the material. Impermanent ?,...."six of one, half dozen of the other". My small freighthouse is 50 years old.( more on that later ).

Styrene : Al Armitage was one of the earliest proponents of styrene, before sheets, and shapes were readily available. I saw, in his articles, a material that had a very wide range of applications. With liquid "solvent" adhesives, a fairly quick, and reliable material for models. I have used, and continue to use styrene in many different applications.
I have even dared to speak of "plastic" on a couple of the "wood ship model" forums, and come away with most of my hide intact.
I have kitbashed, scratchbuilt, rolling stock, diesel and steam loco's, bridges, buildings, ships, boats and much more, in both wood, and styrene, even combining the two in a single model.

( it's later ) On my new modules I have my 50 year old freight house, and some new styrene kit structures. There's a 43 year old, wood, pickle factory , a 37 year old wood coal tower, a 36 year old kitbashed plastic roundhouse .
After two shows, one in Rockford, Il. and Trainfest, in Milwaukee, trips that my old modules made for 20 years without damage, the freight house, the coal tower, and two of the new styrene kit structures suffered fairly extensive, similar, damage. The scratchbuilt wood shed and dock, on the old modules, still "good as new" is 48 years old.
The difference? Because of the larger size ( 30" vice 24" ) of the new modules, I wasn't able to secure them in the trailer as well as I could the old ones......it's a case of, the modules were coming down, as the trailer was coming up.
The impact shock didn't care about wood, or styrene....it broke both, with equal enthusiasm.
What has surprised me, is that the effects of heat, cold, humidity, etc. hasn't been a major factor in the models' longevity.
After all the different environments I've subjected my models to, in all the moves I've made as a result of Military service, they all, wood, and styrene, have survived remarkably well .
The trick with any material, is understanding its advantages and its limitations. Learning how to work with it, and learning what adhesives will hold the longest, in "all" conditions.
A "new" freshly painted wood building can be modeled in styrene, moderately "weathered", and look perfect. An old, rarely maintained barn, might be the better for the imprecise qualities of wood. Broken, or rotted boards are naturally imprecise. Steel, on the other hand is far better modeled in styrene, even bent, twisted, or rusted.
Choosing a material, becomes a matter of "the nature of the thing being modeled", and what condition, new, or ancient, the model represents, and, "the Artistic License", and technique of the modeler/artist, and I haven't even begun to scratch the surface. There's brass, paper, card stock, cereal boxes, aluminum foil, ground foam, plaster, and on, and on.
What you have learned to work with, what you will learn to work with, what you've learned you can't work with, choice, in a hobby like this, there is no wrong one. ( here, again, my "signature" says it all )

[scubadude]

Thanks, Sumpter and everyone else for your input, valuable indeed. The beauty of BB is it gives us the luxury of "selectively compressing" hundreds of years of collective experience to enhance our individual needs. This advice offered on this thread is invaluable to my first attempt at a scratchbuild that is going to be a focal point of an incredible layout. With y'alls help and a little blind luck we may pull it off.
After considering everyone's thoughts, I am indeed going with wood for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I really LIKE working with wood vs plastic. All of the craftsmen style kits I have built for Allan's layout so far have all been wood. The techniques learned during those builds will come in handy during this one. Also, I do have allergies to either the styrene or glues used. On small projects, no big deal, but if I am into a long one requiring lots of sanding, even with a mask I come down with head and chest congestion and chronic coughing for 2 or 3 days...not good. I have tried various glues as suggested to no avail. And thirdly to Sumpter's point, wood naturally looks "woody" vs trying something new and weathering plastic to look like wood. This old hotel is going to be rather large and I just don't feel confident enough in my skill sets to make plastic look like wood. If it were a brick or some other material, I would of course go with styrene. Allan's layout is an 1100 sq ft one occupying the entire upstairs of his home and will be climate controlled and not moved to shows or the like. It is even encased in glass walls to give it even more protection from dust and wandering hands.

Next step will be starting the drawings, I'll be posting my plans as soon as they are in working order for your review.

Thanks again for all your input, please keep holding my hand as we follow the yellow brick road..... :o