Small commuter focused layout?

[Green_Elite_Cab]

I've still been thinking about this subject, not so much to actually build a layout, but because there are so few model railroads that feature commuter trains.

Most people site commuter trains (and passenger trains in general) as being "boring to operate".Certainly, if you plan to just operate the layout with a single train shuttling around, I can see the issue.

So what would it take to make a commuter operation interesting?

There are two ideas that come to mind.

First, you could do terminal switching. there are several layouts that focus solely on this aspect. As has been mentioned here and elsewhere, one can shunt cars this way and that, and "dispatch" them to staging. A terminal facility might be interesting, but even then, its just a whole lot of back and forth.

The Second Idea seems more appealing- A "Fork" in the road.

For example, two commuter trains depart Reading Terminal in Philadelphia bound north. One train is heading to West Trenton, NJ, the other to Lansdale, PA. The Double track line to West Trenton splits north of Jenkintown, with the mainline continuing to West Trenton and the branch going to Lansdale. These trains are right behind each other, and need to be set on the correct track to be going to the correct destination. Whats more, a Philadelphia bound "Wall Street" returning from New York City will also be passing through that junction at about that time.

The trick now is to be able to sort those trains quickly onto their appropriate routes without holding them (for to long).

As a layout, you could feature the junction, as well as a length of the mainline in either direction to get the whole train in view. Staging can be on all three ends ( Philadelphia staging, West Trenton/New York staging, Lansdale staging).

In the late 70s the average Reading Company/ SEPTA commuter train was only 4 Silverliner cars long (maybe a little more for the old Reading "blueliners"), and intercity trains like the Wall Street and the Crusader were only two RDCs long.

In theory, one could have a relatively medium sized layout that has plenty of action with multiple trains zipping through within close proximity to each other. When you're running on a fast clock, you really need to be able to move the trains fast!

The only issue I can see with this sort of layout is that it may require more than one person to operate the trains, since it might be difficult to juggle all of that at once. setting up an Automatic system where the modeler simply acts as the tower man could be a way to resolve this.

This is just a hypothetical Idea, what do you think? (again, no plans to build this, just trying to come up with an interesting operation)

[steinjr]

If you want automated layout with lots of passenger trains moving, have a look at at the Broadway Lion's subway layout (http://broadwaylion.com/page4.html).

There is also an automated downtown Philadelphia layout (http://www.prrnortheastcorridor.com/)Steve Smith made with lots of moving passenger trains and trams and what not.

But none of these really qualify as a "small" layout.

As for what would be the most interesting situation - terminal switching, or throwing a turnout between two trains to send train 1 off into staging on track 1 and train 2 into staging on track 2 - it really depends on what you like.

Personally, I find the description in Model Railroad Planning 1997 of passenger terminal car handling at Argentine on Chuch Hitchcock's old layout a lot more interesting than just watching trains scoot through a junction, but your mileage may of course vary.

The core problem with simulating a lot of traffic through a small scene over some time (not just train1, train2, train 3 - done) is that you have to have lots of staging (or turn/recycle the sets pretty rapidly - e.g. using run-through staging and fairly generic looking commuter trains - so the same set first is train A eastbound, then train B eastbound, then train C westbound, then train D westbound or whatever).

So I would say that the core design decisions for a commuter railfanning layout is length of the repeat cycle, and staging design.

Smile,
Stein

[shortliner]

Can I suggest some possible solutions to your problem - all from Carls site - BTW Hopefully updated soon - #44 Passenger Inglenook. #26 Wrinkle, Folding way terminal in shelf switchers "passenger lines" + some others in the same section <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://carendt.us/microplans/pages/shelf/passenger/index.html#5">http://carendt.us/microplans/pages/shel ... dex.html#5</a><!-- m -->

[jwb]

Here is a commuter operation that's almost in place on my layout. My main passenger terminal, which is named Manhattan Transfer for no good reason, has both long distance and commuter operation. Here is an RDC on the commuter run to West Egg waiting to leave the commuter platform at Manhattan Transfer:
   
Here it is entering one end of the Walthers swing bridge:
   
Here it is leaving the other end of the swing bridge:
   
Here it is at the far end of the run, West Egg:
   
The whole run is maybe 12 feet. I aim to install a back-and-forth circuit that can be cut in or switched out as needed, since other freight and passenger trains will be using the same track.

Especially in more modern times, commuter operations can be pretty simple-minded. I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s in New Jersey and Washington, DC and got to ride some of the more complicated operations on lines like the Long Island, New Haven, Lackawanna and Reading, so I have an idea of some of their appeal and will eventually have longer-distance runs with locos that have to change ends. Still, this part of things ain't like the switching on your video, and my thinking is that scenery and incidentals are very important to keep interest. You can never have enough figures, enough vehicles, enough relay cases, enough dwarf signals, etc etc etc -- I'm still working away on these. Also the stations should be architecturally interesting, thus for instance the Magnuson station at West Egg.

[Ronweebel70]

How about something built like the HOG model railroad but one side could be staging reusing equipment for the passenger moves if necessary. There could be an industrial area on one or more sides.Residential/business district with a depot on third side. Multiple track mainline .This also gives you a continuous run option.

Ron

http://hogrr.blogspot.com/

[Green_Elite_Cab]

If you want automated layout with lots of passenger trains moving, have a look at at the Broadway Lion's subway layout (http://broadwaylion.com/page4.html).

There is also an automated downtown Philadelphia layout (http://www.prrnortheastcorridor.com/)Steve Smith made with lots of moving passenger trains and trams and what not.

I've seen that one. Steve is actually a member here, under the name AC_Catenary. always cool stuff on that layout.

But none of these really qualify as a "small" layout.

As for what would be the most interesting situation - terminal switching, or throwing a turnout between two trains to send train 1 off into staging on track 1 and train 2 into staging on track 2 - it really depends on what you like.

Personally, I find the description in Model Railroad Planning 1997 of passenger terminal car handling at Argentine on Chuch Hitchcock's old layout a lot more interesting than just watching trains scoot through a junction, but your mileage may of course vary.

I suppose, but i figure the rate by which trains need to be switched and moved might make it a little more interesting. Having spent half an hour switching out my layout, i'm not sure that is necessarily the most exciting thing.

Perhaps I just like to see the trains roll. This is something that perhaps only now has occurred to me. Of all the trains that are always on the move, commuter trains would be the busiest. They may not be much with operations, but I guess I just like to see them flash by.

The core problem with simulating a lot of traffic through a small scene over some time (not just train1, train2, train 3 - done) is that you have to have lots of staging (or turn/recycle the sets pretty rapidly - e.g. using run-through staging and fairly generic looking commuter trains - so the same set first is train A eastbound, then train B eastbound, then train C westbound, then train D westbound or whatever).

So I would say that the core design decisions for a commuter railfanning layout is length of the repeat cycle, and staging design.

Smile,
Stein

That seems to be the issue. Staging many commuter trains you might need (assuming one even owns enough, given the rarity of commuter cars of the past 40 years), could be problematic. Staging to run a small layout could easily oversize the actual layout portion. If you re-use the trains as you have said, on a continuous circuit, that could help alleviate problems. To most people, Commuter trains look exactly the same, especially the Silverliner and Arrow types I run on my layout. It could probably be done.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Can I suggest some possible solutions to your problem - all from Carls site - BTW Hopefully updated soon - #44 Passenger Inglenook. #26 Wrinkle, Folding way terminal in shelf switchers "passenger lines" + some others in the same section <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://carendt.us/microplans/pages/shelf/passenger/index.html#5">http://carendt.us/microplans/pages/shel ... dex.html#5</a><!-- m -->

Might make an interesting layout, though I don't think any of the models I own could really fit in there and still be able to move around.

That said, I was pondering if a small rapid transit layout would do the job. If it were long (like the 1'x8' layout described earlier), you could model an few subway (or in my case, PATCO) cars shuttling this way and that. Then again, it would have to get its merits from looking fantastic, since that sort of shuttle operations is the most entertaining.

Here is a commuter operation that's almost in place on my layout. My main passenger terminal, which is named Manhattan Transfer for no good reason, has both long distance and commuter operation. Here is an RDC on the commuter run to West Egg waiting to leave the commuter platform at Manhattan Transfer:

The whole run is maybe 12 feet. I aim to install a back-and-forth circuit that can be cut in or switched out as needed, since other freight and passenger trains will be using the same track.

Very nice, I think I have the other end of that train! I picked up a Reading Company RDC3 for cheap one day, though now i'm trying to figure out how to convert it into a snack bar coach like what was used on the old Crusader and Wall Street before those trains were cancelled by SEPTA.

Especially in more modern times, commuter operations can be pretty simple-minded. I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s in New Jersey and Washington, DC and got to ride some of the more complicated operations on lines like the Long Island, New Haven, Lackawanna and Reading, so I have an idea of some of their appeal and will eventually have longer-distance runs with locos that have to change ends. Still, this part of things ain't like the switching on your video, and my thinking is that scenery and incidentals are very important to keep interest. You can never have enough figures, enough vehicles, enough relay cases, enough dwarf signals, etc etc etc -- I'm still working away on these. Also the stations should be architecturally interesting, thus for instance the Magnuson station at West Egg.

I don't even know where to begin with many of those small details!

I'm thinking I better just ballast and add the trees for now, then figure all of that out. Still, I have to agree. a Commuter train running in boring scenery is even more boring. I think i've let the scenery half of the hobby go in my quest to obtain more local stuff.

How about something built like the HOG model railroad but one side could be staging reusing equipment for the passenger moves if necessary. There could be an industrial area on one or more sides.Residential/business district with a depot on third side. Multiple track mainline .This also gives you a continuous run option.

Ron

http://hogrr.blogspot.com/

I've seen that before, and its pretty close to the idea that I had. That might be the best way for something "immeadiate".

[MrBill]

Stein pretty much nailed it. You really need staging. Hidden, open or probably both. Maybe some surround sidings behind a backdrop. While a bit crowded, that Yale student's layout was a really good commuter layout example.

[BR60103]

I used the Minories plan for one of my stations.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page85b/index.html">http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page85b/index.html</a><!-- m -->
It's about 8 feet long and a foot wide but it joins into a double track section of my layout and I use the big station as a fiddle yard for it. I also don't have enough suburban (commuter) trains in the same railway to run it properly -- the locos move from train to train and no longer match.
The operation is supposed to be train arrives, loco in stub track moves to back end and takes coaches out, ex-train loco moves to stub or directly to back of another train.
(There's an enlarged version with a couple of freight sidings).

[Green_Elite_Cab]

I used the Minories plan for one of my stations.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page85b/index.html">http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page85b/index.html</a><!-- m -->
It's about 8 feet long and a foot wide but it joins into a double track section of my layout and I use the big station as a fiddle yard for it. I also don't have enough suburban (commuter) trains in the same railway to run it properly -- the locos move from train to train and no longer match.
The operation is supposed to be train arrives, loco in stub track moves to back end and takes coaches out, ex-train loco moves to stub or directly to back of another train.
(There's an enlarged version with a couple of freight sidings).

that would look good with a Rapid Transit type layout, with Subways, Elevated lines, or what have you. Other than the P1k Subways though, HO subway cars get expensive (let alone difficult to find).

In the example, the staging tracks are "covered" by a locomotive terminal. Perhaps one could cleverly disguise the outermost staging track as a subway tunnel/station while the "lid" is on top.