ocalicreek Wrote:Justin,

Good luck with whatever you decide. :|

I think somebody needs to come out with a step-by-step how-to book for novice modelers based NOT on the sacred sheet of 4x8 plywood, but a small switching layout. Just like one of those basics for beginners books with an intro chapter with some nice beauty shots of the finished layout and some basic modeling philosophy, and a chapter each on benchwork, trackwork, wiring, rolling stock, scenery and operations, but based on an ISL or something small. Lance Mindheim or another such modeler with feet firmly planted in the great traditions of the hobby but with a good pulse on the modern developments too would be ideal. I have a feeling such a book would be a tremendous success. I'd write it myself if that were my area of interest, but I already have a clear idea of just what I want to model and the steps I need to take to accomplish that, and I'm at a place in my life where I can do that.

My wish for you is that you find what it is you're looking for, and that it makes you happy, even if it's not model railroading.

Galen

Thanks Galen! I hope that I am not frustrating you guys with my constant changes :?

And Galen about that book, Do you mean something like this? http://www.amazon.com/Build-Switching-La...758&sr=1-7

Yes, you are frustrating me with your constant changes, but as biL pointed out, YOU have to be happy with your choices.

Remember - the steering wheel works better when the car is in drive and your foot is on the gas, not the brake!

And YES, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Dadgum. Good to know I'm right on about the need and at the same time, only a couple months late on the timing. Funny.

Galen

Justinmiller171 Wrote:It has been about 6 months since I put up benchwork and I haven't made very much progress at all, During the troubleshooting stage of my wiring problem I have to disconnect most of the track from each other, So now I am back to just having benchwork set up, and not much else.

I have also been thinking about how long it is going to take to "Finish" this layout, and by "Finish" I mean have the layout be fully operational, fully sceniced, and have a decent amount of super-detailing.

I have about a year and a half to finish this layout before I go off to collage so I have been considering something smaller.
I have had my eye on the Mid-Atlantic & Western layout from the May 2001 MRR. I think that a layout that size could be built within a year and a half.

What are your thoughts?

You are seemingly finding it hard to "complete" a layout with a fairly simple track plan. Why would it become easier if you replace a simpler track plan with a more complex track plan, and make the scenery urban instead of rural?

How about making a small first layout that is simple to build and scenic, and still offer interesting switching? Say a variant on an Inglenook or on Dave Hill's excellent New Castle Industrial Railroad, which I believe you have gotten a link to before.

Say something like this - which can be built as two sections - one 4x1 feet and one 2x1 feet - could potentially be made even narrower - maybe 10" or so.



Ought to be possible to get operational fairly quickly, has room for building a few structures and doing some scenery, will fit into most rooms, including a college dorm, and if you get tired of it, you won't have a huge amount of money sunk into it - it can be scrapped without loosing much.

Smile,
Stein

Galen makes some good points! (He usually does.)

It seems that the new, youthful model railroaders have for some reason adopted this notion that those of us "more seasoned veterans" built a layout to a completed appearance last week and are now merely enjoying looking at it, or something to that effect. The young guns have some odd fixation on "finished!"

They know all about modelers like the young Mr. Lindheim, who modeling skills are considerable ... but he is not some magic god ... his beautiful Industrial Switching Layout that we've all now seen and stared deep into the photos, marveling at the detail, did not materialize in a mere couple of weeks ... or even a piddling several months!!!!!!!!!!! These things take time.

The modelers who inspired many of us more seasoned guys, the likes of John Armstrong, John Allen, Bruce Chubb, Alan McClelland, Tony Koester, et. al. spent DECADES building, detailing, realizing that their skill set had improved over time and the sections completed first appeared somewhat crude compared to the newer areas, and the old ones are torn out and redone ... they were (and in some cases still are) never "FINISHED!." There is a slow, stady ongoing evolution that takes place when building a model railroad ... it's just not a POOF! DONE! kind of proposition!

If it were, there would be no "seasoned veterans!" We woluld have built a "Finished Layout," admired it for a little while ... and then moved on to the next attention grabbing, interesting-looking, gotta-do-that activity that happened to be the popular "hobby" to be involved in.

Or maybe I'm justr getting to be some old curmudgeon who wishes the young guns would slow down long enough to realize that ours is the "Hobby of a Lifetime!" And by that, I don't necessarily mean that it is the only hobby to come along that is worth becoming involved in, although I bet I could build and argue a case for that premise, but it is a hobby that the hobbiest can take with them through the journey of life, fron the pre-teen years to octagenarianism!

What's the rush to be finished?

:?: :?: :? :?: :?: :!:

Justin - I'm not sure why you have to fill the space that you have available - when you go to college, you may well not have that sort of space available, and you also have the problem of moving it. Why not look at building something much smaller, that you have some chance of actually getting into a runable condition , and taht you can continue to work on, and detail, whilst being able to run trains around on it? This is one from Carls site, that I designed for a friend who needed to get something completed for an up coming exhibition (Bear in mind that it was designed to fit in short UK rolling stock so the spurs need lengthening a little - If you want to enlarge it you can, by adding in a couple of inches here or there, (4" on each end would give you a 48" long layout, that with ends and a back could form a box) but ensure that it is physically transportable, and not to big to go around corridor corners or fit into a car. You could almost go on adding detailing like bits of rubbish, newspapers, old pallets etc for ever! For US stock, use a 44-tonner or similar, and 40'cars and switch away - it may keep you busy for longer than you expect!

"A TAILORED DESIGN THAT PACKS IN A LOT OF ACTION"






Shortliner Jack Trollope, from the Highlands of Scotland, sometimes helps his friends with their layout-design problems. One day he received an e-mail requesting layout ideas for a "38x14in board in OO scale, using on-hand track supplies of 1 wye , 2 LH and 3 RH points."

Being a talented designer, Jack almost immediately produced the design at right, which he has named St. John's Yard. In Jack's own words, "The left and right ends are hidden under overbridges, and all the tracks approaching board ends appear to continue elsewhere, to make it look bigger. You can leave wagons on a couple of the 'disappearing' tracks to make it look as though there are longer lines. All track-ends should hold an O8 size loco and at least one 10'wheelbase wagon [that's British four-wheeled stock]. The layout should feature lots of dirty urban atmosphere!

"A further thought suggests that two or three 15in double-ended cassettes (holding a loco and two cars) could be plugged onto the 'disappearing tracks' as required and would increase the 'play-value' and let stock be changed or turned around." A pretty versatile design in just over three square feet!

Justin if you're looking for more layout ideas may I suggest Byron Henderson's site:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery/">http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery/</a><!-- m -->

I based my layout on one of his small designs and can not be happier with the operations. It's very fun to run.

Justinmiller171 Wrote:Do you mean something like this? http://www.amazon.com/Build-Switching-La...758&sr=1-7

Justin;
Lance's book would be a good place for you to start. It's really more a collection of the methods he uses in building a layout then what I'd call a blow-by-blow how to build a layout book, but it is full of good ideas and practices. The layout he builds in the book appears to be very simple at first glance and is actually almost identical to the plan that Stein has submitted, but it actually has a lot of prototypical operating potential.

His example layout is designed to fit one HCD, with a short clamp on extension, whereas you have two HCD's and could increase the length of the two industry tracks to allow for more car spot locations - just be sure that you leave enough open room clear of the first switch so you have space to work. Perhaps even make a clamp on extension that would curve off the main layout on the left side. You could build a mirror image of the plan and put a very narrow switching lead off the right side of your layout area instead of using a whole HCD there. Might help with the leaking room problem too. Before I found the prototype track arrangement that I'm using now, I actually tacked down a lengthened version of Lance's plan and operated it for a short time and found it very enjoyable.

Operating a switching layout like that at prototypical speeds, having to place and pull cars at specific locations; you may be very surprised at the length of time it takes to operate and the enjoyment you'd get from it. Not only that, but you can get a layout like that to a "semi-finished appearance" without it taking years. Myself, I've played around with numerous plans the past year and still find that the industrial spur plan that I have laid out is the most satisfying and fun to operate! Only problem is now that I can actually run a train on it, I'm not getting anything else done! Even have a couple of model railroaders here in town wanting to build something similar themselves, as they've had such a good time operating mine.

As several of the folks here have told you, a model railroad layout is never really finished. Get the track laid and wired (even temporarily) - operate it for a while and if you're satisfied then take your time with structures and scenery. As time goes on look at all the detail you could add to it!

Going with a simple plan, using few turnouts, rather than a plan that is filled with track and switches would be great practice for improving your skills toward that monster layout you might want to build in future years. Start out simple - and take your time!

I hate to add an additional choice for you, but if you are going off to college in a year and a half, you might want to consider a small switching layout that would fit on top of a dresser in a dorm room. Just a little something to take to college with you to use to relax and unwind. Galen built a timesaver. I know the timesaver is not a prototypically realistic switching layout, but it fits an a small space. He did some great scenery on it, good enough to be featured in Walther's "Magic of model railroading" section in one of their catalogs a few years ago. With a Bachmann 44 toner, and a few freight cars, it was fun to play with after the meeting one night at the modular club. This would be a layout that you would finish. Make it light weight enough that it is easily transported when you go to college. Build a cover box that could be installed to keep dust off or protect it when moving. I don't know about you, but when I'm studying or dealing with a difficult problem, sometimes just stepping away for a few minutes to do something else allows my subconscious to solve the problem for me. This one would not need to be dcc, since it is so small. You can "noodle and doodle" your dream layout for when you graduate from college and finally get a "real job" and a home of your own. No matter what you build to fit in your current bed room or what ever your layout space, it probably won't fit your next place after you graduate from college.

Okay guys, How about this: I build a small switching layout(probably a Tymesaver) on one of my 2'x80". Once I get it up to the basic scenery stage, I will then work on building a layout across the wall with the two remaining HCDs. And I will try to work on them at a slow pace .

Oh and by the way, I have two good collages less then an hour away from me, So I won''t have to go very far when I move .

Fine - as long as you don't call it a tYmesaver, but a tImesaver, with an I, not a Y.

Next question - will you operate it like a switching puzzle, or more prototypically?

Also what setting will you choose? It lends itself nicely to an urban canyon, but you're only limited by your imagination.

Galen

Justin;

Here's an example of what I was talking about using your current space:[attachment=7033]Even though it looks very simple as far as the track plan is concerned - it's quite prototypical and has some interesting industries on it that support a wide selection of equipment. Industrial spurs like this are found all over the country. It only requires 4 turnouts and a few feet of flex track. As noted, the "main line" switch can be non-operating, if you have a messed up turnout laying around that you don't want to toss in the dumpster.

I'd have a "typical" switch job come on to the spur with no more than about 4 cars at a time and even without any "time-killing" injected (waiting to build your air, flagging crossings, etc.) it would probably take a good 45 minutes to an hour to operate a session. The narrow shelf on the right side (where you are having flood conditions) gives you a nice staging area and a little main line running to the industrial spur.

Wouldn't take long at all to at least lay the track and test it out. Russ does have a good idea about building a portable Timesaver to take with you to college. Even though the Timesaver is a game, it would be a good thing to play with to ease the tension and test out rolling stock, etc.

Just my 2 1/2 cents worth.

Galen, I will be operating it like a puzzle, It will be more of a "Just for Fun" layout, that way I can be more patient with the bigger layout.

Ed, That is a great Track-plan!
If I get the time I will set up some track in that formation and see how it operates.

shortliner Wrote:when you go to college, you may well not have that sort of space available, and you also have the problem of moving it. Why not look at building something much smaller, that you have some chance of actually getting into a runnable condition , and that you can continue to work on, and detail, whilst being able to run trains around on it?

Nice design, Jack. Btw, speaking about small designs - I was mucking around with one of your designs today (Andrew Street Yard), to see if I could come up with something that could be transported in two small 4 x 1 foot modules :



Smile,
Stein

Hey Stein - I like that a lot!

Justin-no offense but cut the crap already. Many people on this thread have given you many good ideas for layouts and all I seem to get from you is one excuse after another.
My advice to you would be to get one one the books that was suggested to you,look up small layouts on the web,and build something that fits your needs and build it.
It took me sometime and help from others to come up with a layout that worked for me.As to your question as to when a layout is finished,the best answer I can
give you is they are not.I have been working on mine for 2 1/2 years and it's not done yet.I am always finding something to improve upon.
Anyway do what you have to and get started.
Bob