Brakie Wrote:There's a lot more to ISL operation then just "resetting the cars"..A good rotation plan is a must..The cars you picked up today must be removed and another inbound cut be placed on the layout.

I don't recall seeing many runarounds in industrial areas in fact many urban branch lines didn't have them-we pulled or reverse into the branch.Even today runarounds seems far and few between since a lot of locals still uses cabooses for long reverse moves or a locomotive on each end..

There is a reason for that...

I suppose I might be a little skewed, because run arounds seem fairly common to my eye, not only is there one near my house, but often when i review my Conrail ZTS maps, there is some sort of provision for getting around a train near most large industrial areas. That said, I've seen plenty of Cabooses being used for those long back up moves in areas such as those industrial tracks along the Northeast Corridor (see the last pic in the "Trains from the Sky" thread in the Upper Berth) and in Southern New Jersey (i think you may also need a caboose if you running on certain commuter tracks, but I'm not clear on that one, it could just be that to stay out of the way of commuter trains, you would be making long back up moves anyway). However, even these didn't seem to be to far distant from some sort of small yard or something.

In the grand scheme of an ISL, you probably don't need a run around. If you're not resetting cars, you're rotating them .

I definitely hadn't considered the excess time as far as freight goes, but i guess its the same problem that led to the Push-pull commuter train, all those extra moves hold things up. Given that many of the industrial tracks by me have trains creeping along at 15 MPH for almost the whole route of somewhere around 10 miles, i wasn't sure that time was all that important (within reason, of course).

This also makes me curious then. in my earlier Hainesport example, there are no industries that are required to be backed in from the east. everything can be switched with the locomotives heading westbound. Why not just back the whole train in from the main yard in Pavonia, Camden? The only thing I can figure is that the train will be on parts of NJT's Atlantic City line, and a some other "main" tracks in the area.

Here's the catch-22..Overtime.Locals to some railroads are a necessary evil that cuts into their grand scheme of unit and intermodal trains railroading and of course the bottom line should a local crew hit the "good money" 5 days a week 52 weeks a year.Switches needs to be maintain -more added cost.

What to do? cried the bean counters.

Ah,we'll add another locomotive or a caboose for reverse moves to those blasted locals and save hundreds of man hours by eliminating the runaround moves and we can eliminate one more job ( brakeman/conductor's helper) and remove unneeded track in the process!

Excellent! declared the upper management.Let's get it done!

Then the Feds added more federal safety mandates and that help push runarounds from favor.

Brakie wrote...

There is a reason for that..

The amount of work required to make a runaround takes time-lots of time since you must make a three step for in between,set handbrake on at least three cars,close air valves,release the three step and uncouple,pull to the switch,stop and unlock and line the switch,pull ahead,stop,close and lock the switch,pull ahead stop short of the switch,unlock and open the switch,pull clear of the switch,close and lock the switch,reverse back to your train,stop,check coupler alignment,couple to train,apply the three step,in between,connect the air hoses,open air valves,walk to the rear of the train checking air hoses and make sure all air line valves are open and release the handbrakes,walk back to the engine and pump up the air,make a brake test.

When we do switching on our layouts, we tend to loose sight (or just ignore...) all these operations. We just couple (or uncouple) and go...

Bearing this in mind, I generally pause for a few seconds before going on to the next move. If the cut being picked up, or dropped, involves several cars, the longer the pause. It's amazing how much more "realistic" the operation seems. This, together with more realistic train speeds, really gives you a "feel" of watching the real thing.

Go ahead...Give it a try... You'll be pleasantly surprised....

Brakie Wrote:Here's the catch-22..Overtime.Locals to some railroads are a necessary evil that cuts into their grand scheme of unit and intermodal trains railroading and of course the bottom line should a local crew hit the "good money" 5 days a week 52 weeks a year.Switches needs to be maintain -more added cost.

What to do? cried the bean counters.

Ah,we'll add another locomotive or a caboose for reverse moves to those blasted locals and save hundreds of man hours by eliminating the runaround moves and we can eliminate one more job ( brakeman/conductor's helper) and remove unneeded track in the process!

Excellent! declared the upper management.Let's get it done!

Then the Feds added more federal safety mandates and that help push runarounds from favor.

The other result was that the class one railroads divested themselves of local branch lines, which were then sold off to smaller operators if the traffic warranted. These smaller non-union operators and in some cases union operations just specialized in serving local industries and acted as feeders to the class one's.

Steamtrains Wrote:...Bearing this in mind, I generally pause for a few seconds before going on to the next move. If the cut being picked up, or dropped, involves several cars, the longer the pause. It's amazing how much more "realistic" the operation seems. This, together with more realistic train speeds, really gives you a "feel" of watching the real thing...

Since I you do switching/operating that way I do not like complicated track plans on my layout anymore. Following the prototype is operating a "time saver like layout" a very painful undertaking. One of the reasons why I did remove some turnouts over the last month. The streamlined tracks are enough challenge.

Russ Bellinis Wrote:...The other result was that the class one railroads divested themselves of local branch lines, which were then sold off to smaller operators if the traffic warranted. These smaller non-union operators and in some cases union operations just specialized in serving local industries and acted as feeders to the class one's.

I assume they have a much lower labor cost structure permitting labor intensive work. On the other hand I assume they are short on capital and reuse older equipment to prevent capital expenditures and high depreciations in their balance sheet.

faraway Wrote:

Russ Bellinis Wrote:...The other result was that the class one railroads divested themselves of local branch lines, which were then sold off to smaller operators if the traffic warranted. These smaller non-union operators and in some cases union operations just specialized in serving local industries and acted as feeders to the class one's.

I assume they have a much lower labor cost structure permitting labor intensive work. On the other hand I assume they are short on capital and reuse older equipment to prevent capital expenditures and high depreciations in their balance sheet.

Don't tell that to R.J.Corman or GWI since these short line operators operate top notch short lines and utilize 2-3 men crews as needed..They also keep their equipment in top notch condition.There are several others as well.

There are some short lines that is barely inking out a living and their equipment and tracks reflect that..

faraway Wrote:I assume they have a much lower labor cost structure permitting labor intensive work. On the other hand I assume they are short on capital and reuse older equipment to prevent capital expenditures and high depreciations in their balance sheet.

LAJ is a wholly owned subsidiary of BNSF, but they have a lower wage union contract than the BNSF. As you can see they have historically run "hand me down" locomotives from the BNSF. The LPG 1200's were bought or leased new by the Santa Fe, but almost immediately they were transferred to the LAJ. When short lines like the PHL buy new equipment, it is usually with government funding to reduce emissions. I don't know if there is any place other than Los Angeles where the government will help a railroad buy low emission equipment to reduce air pollution. The Arkansas & Missouri is typical of short lines created from divestiture. The priced out used locomotives and found that they could buy 3 used Alco Century 420s for the same price as one used EMD model, so they bought up almost all of the use C420's available and cannibalize two units to keep one running. Another example is Micheal Gross, the actor from the Family Ties television show bought the Santa Fe branch from the Santa Fe that runs from Lamy, New Mexico to Santa Fe, New Mexico. The last I heard, he was using one or more used Cf7s from the Santa Fe.

Brakie Wrote:...save hundreds of man hours by eliminating the runaround moves...

Wouldn't the railroad get more money from requiring a runaround move, since industries are charged on how many "moves" it takes to switch?

Justinmiller171 Wrote:

Brakie Wrote:...save hundreds of man hours by eliminating the runaround moves...

Wouldn't the railroad get more money from requiring a runaround move, since industries are charged on how many "moves" it takes to switch?

Nope that's not spotting or picking the car up at the car industry...

As far as moves a heads up crew will avoid unnecessary moves and couplings since this is amounts to extra work that isn't necessary to get the job done.

Steamtrains Wrote:I generally pause for a few seconds before going on to the next move.

One simple and prototypical thing I do is to note the time when cars are placed/pulled from each industry on the switch list after completely the work at that industry. This is required on the prototype for record keeping purposes and the short amount of time required to do this adds just enough "kill time" to operations to be interesting without being boring. I find that too much "kill time" tends to make things seem too much like "real work" LOL. Operating at scale speeds, waiting a couple of seconds before pulling away from a car you just set out and noting the time that the car was placed/pulled is about right.

Justinmiller171 Wrote:Wouldn't the railroad get more money from requiring a runaround move, since industries are charged on how many "moves" it takes to switch?

Not sure where you got the idea that industries are charged by how many moves it takes to switch the cars. The railroad doesn't charge the customer to spot a car for loading/unloading.

The only charges that the industry pays to the railroad are the freight charges for the shipment; paid by the shipper as all shipments must be prepaid today and then any demurrage charges that might accrue if the shipper/consignee exceeds the allowable free time to load/unload the car (typically 24 hrs to load - 48 hrs to unload). These days, that can be very expensive. You can find these charges listed on most all prototype railroad web sites, but an average charge seems to be in the $60-$120 per day range. Far cry from what it used to be a few years ago.

Exception, if the car on spot is a private owner car placed on a private track, then in almost all cases, no demurrage charges apply. One reason why you'll see certain cars on spot at some industries for many days as the customer may actually being using the car as storage for the commodity.

In some situations, there may be a switching charge involved when a customer has a car on spot and needs that car moved to another spot on their track to finish loading/unloading the car. And this charge might be something that a short line or STC company might waive to keep the customer happy.

Lot's of other miscellaneous charges can apply pertaining to railroad accounting rules, but we, as model railroaders need not be concerned with that aspect other than keeping track of when a car was placed and should be pulled, i.e.; brakies rotation scheme. We just want to operate in a prototypical fashion and get the work done as efficiently as possible (like the prototype), although you don't want to rush it!

As for having a runaround track on the layout; I've tried a couple of times to come up with a track plan that would include/require using a runaround with industries that must be switched from both directions. But for whatever reason, it just never feels right to me for an industrial spur. Of course it would depend on what you are modeling and if you're modeling a particular prototype location that does have a runaround, then you'd of course include one. Were I to change my layout theme from strictly an industrial spur to say a small short line or STC based on something like the Effingham Railroad, then it would feel right to me.

The end of a branch line is often another good example where a runaround might well be required, but as has been pointed out, these days they seem to be vanishing as a long shoving move or the use of a locomotive on each end of the train can eliminate the need for running around the train.

FCIN Wrote:

Steamtrains Wrote:I generally pause for a few seconds before going on to the next move.

One simple and prototypical thing I do is to note the time when cars are placed/pulled from each industry on the switch list after completely the work at that industry. This is required on the prototype for record keeping purposes and the short amount of time required to do this adds just enough "kill time" to operations to be interesting without being boring. I find that too much "kill time" tends to make things seem too much like "real work" LOL. Operating at scale speeds, waiting a couple of seconds before pulling away from a car you just set out and noting the time that the car was placed/pulled is about right.

Justinmiller171 Wrote:Wouldn't the railroad get more money from requiring a runaround move, since industries are charged on how many "moves" it takes to switch?

Not sure where you got the idea that industries are charged by how many moves it takes to switch the cars. The railroad doesn't charge the customer to spot a car for loading/unloading.

The only charges that the industry pays to the railroad are the freight charges for the shipment; paid by the shipper as all shipments must be prepaid today and then any demurrage charges that might accrue if the shipper/consignee exceeds the allowable free time to load/unload the car (typically 24 hrs to load - 48 hrs to unload). These days, that can be very expensive. You can find these charges listed on most all prototype railroad web sites, but an average charge seems to be in the $60-$120 per day range. Far cry from what it used to be a few years ago.

Exception, if the car on spot is a private owner car placed on a private track, then in almost all cases, no demurrage charges apply. One reason why you'll see certain cars on spot at some industries for many days as the customer may actually being using the car as storage for the commodity.

In some situations, there may be a switching charge involved when a customer has a car on spot and needs that car moved to another spot on their track to finish loading/unloading the car. And this charge might be something that a short line or STC company might waive to keep the customer happy.

Lot's of other miscellaneous charges can apply pertaining to railroad accounting rules, but we, as model railroaders need not be concerned with that aspect other than keeping track of when a car was placed and should be pulled, i.e.; brakies rotation scheme. We just want to operate in a prototypical fashion and get the work done as efficiently as possible (like the prototype), although you don't want to rush it!

As for having a runaround track on the layout; I've tried a couple of times to come up with a track plan that would include/require using a runaround with industries that must be switched from both directions. But for whatever reason, it just never feels right to me for an industrial spur. Of course it would depend on what you are modeling and if you're modeling a particular prototype location that does have a runaround, then you'd of course include one. Were I to change my layout theme from strictly an industrial spur to say a small short line or STC based on something like the Effingham Railroad, then it would feel right to me.

The end of a branch line is often another good example where a runaround might well be required, but as has been pointed out, these days they seem to be vanishing as a long shoving move or the use of a locomotive on each end of the train can eliminate the need for running around the train.

When the BNSF works the San Jacinto branch (aka-the San Jac) they have a caboose on the train. It works out of Corona, Ca, and runs to Riverside, Ca where it then leaves the main line to go up the San Jac about 10-15 miles. They pull the caboose at the end of the train one way and return with the caboose on the front coming back. It is probably 30 miles each way.

Justinmiller171 Wrote:I think the first step in "Planning" my layout should be to find a theme, I know I am going to build an ISL but I can't find a specific theme. Any ideas?

Justin;
You might check out some of the Progressive Rail (PGR) operations for ideas. http://www.progressiverail.com/where_we_go.html. Many of the branch lines they operate serve industrial parks. Seems like several modelers are trying to come up with layouts based on their Lakeville, MN industrial park area http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rf51s77...orm=LMLTCC. There was one such layout in an issue or MR not too long ago.

PGR has a nice simple MNS blue paint scheme and decals are available too http://mgdecals.com/L-234.htm. Could always freelance something and use PGR as your road. Just one of many possible ideas.[attachment=8549]

PGR has a unique operation at Lakeville..They have facing point switches with no runaround..

What to do?

They simply keep one SW1500 to handle these industries with facing point switches on the far end of their track the conductor takes over the engineer's job and the engineer becomes the conductor while switching the facing point industries...

I worked as conductor/engineer/manager for Progressive Rail at Lakeville, then one year later, started up the Bloomington High Line operation for them and subsequently began the Wisconsin Northern operation out of Chippewa Falls, WI..

While the Lakeville operation was interesting and at times "fun" it truly was a pia to switch due to all of the switches placed in a multitude of positions and no
runaround track in the park. Every morning we would pull as many mtys as possible (there were few tracks to store extra cars on) from customers on either the rear of the engine or on the nose. Once we had all the mtys together, we would push-pull them out of the park and palce them on the CP (now PGR main from Lakeville to Northfield) with some to the south from our nose and then the rest to the north from our tail.
When the CP train showed up they cut their cars for us, clear of a road crossing to the south and then coupled to our two cuts for them to the north and shoved them north to eat lunch while one, PGR crew and engine quickly sorted through the inbounds using the main, a runaround track, and the lead to the park to separate customer cars for delivery and spotting by a second crew and engine. I do recall this as being a fun and satisying procedure using the time element to not only get the CP main cleared of cars so their crew wasn't delayed in their return to Northfield but also getting all inbound cars spotted to customersso they could begin unloading them before we went to "beans" (lunch). While this, innovative "pitch and catch" operation between the two PGR crews was something I had not encountered in my previous 30 years of railrroading and was effecient and interesting it often led to dangerous, non-compliance of both safety and operating rules. At this time I do not know whether this type of operation is in effect at Lakeville or the issues with rules compliance but I doubt it still is.

The operation up on the Bloomington, High Line was much more modeleable and like a branch line with a few conveinent runaround tracks rather than switching a park although there were a couple of small, "mini parks" on it. But those are stories for another time if folks are interested.

The Wisconsin Northern operation was unique in that there was a complete lack of conveinent, runaround tracks on a line 60 miles long and most of the customers had tracks which were facing point spurs facing north leaving CF. This necessitated having one GP15 on the south and another on the north to deliver lds north one day and pulling mtys south the next on the way back to CF for the UP.

Sorry, I wrote so much.

Barry