I remember reading an article from the late 1980s about someone who built a layout strictly for operation realism. As I recall, the layout was a zigzag of peninsulas, no scenery, and simply signs for industries. If one is striving for operation realism only, why bother with anything but plywood scenery and trackwork that looks like a schematic? On the other hand, making something look like a believable miniature of the real world often means compromises in operation. For example, it is sometimes nice to see the trains go behind a mountain or tall building, but it is hard to reach behind those things to uncouple cars or fix a derailment.

As far as reasons for your curves - sometimes it is a anthropogenic boundary rather than a natural one. If property boundaries already existed before the the railroad, the railroad may have to have strange curves in order to weave between property boundaries that don't line up. I can't recall seeing it in railroads, but I see it in roads all the time. The property boundaries existed prior to the roads, and the highway surveyors had to locate the roads between the existing properties.

Kevin, although operations is a vital aspect for me, when I say things like "down and dirty industrial areas" I am also talking about the scenic aspects, the buildings, the junk piles, product stacked outside, pallets, industrial garbage, weeds grown up in the fences, that sort of stuff. No mountains, no rock faces, no tunnels, no quaint little trestles over a babbling brook.... just industrial scenes and all that they entail. I want highly detailed buildings in various states of repair and cleanliness, the broken concrete parking lots, dust and dirt and grime. So, it isn't that the scenery isn't important, it is just a different sort of scenery... like what I see here in the flat expanses of houston.

Certainly we have to make compromises. And the layout you mention with the peninsulas everywhere is more like the prototype than mine. I am having to compromise on that part because I wanted a longer overall run and wide aisles. So, you're definitely right in your comments.

I think most of us start with an overall vision, and then sort of find our way as the layout progresses. I've never had any "set in stone" plans since I started on the original layout. It was "build the shelves to fit the space, then see how the tracks and structures will best fit to accomplish the overall goals.

All in all, very fun stuff! Thanks for your insight!

Gary, I think that when you put in your industrial buildings, that if done right you, will end up to some extent hiding the fact that the tracks run parallel to the edges of the bench work. The details of the industrial scene will focus attention away from the edges of the bench work.

Russ, that's a good point. The intention all along was to detail the buildings to a high degree, modeled after what I have seen in the industrial areas near work. Those places are just cluttered with all manner of stuff, old pipe, old machines, pallets stacked 30 high and tipping over, barrels, containers, tanks, tin, pipe racks and shelving, on and on. I agree with you that this will focus attention away from the track/benchwork and more on the trains and structures.

Gary S Wrote:Russ, that's a good point. The intention all along was to detail the buildings to a high degree, modeled after what I have seen in the industrial areas near work. Those places are just cluttered with all manner of stuff, old pipe, old machines, pallets stacked 30 high and tipping over, barrels, containers, tanks, tin, pipe racks and shelving, on and on. I agree with you that this will focus attention away from the track/benchwork and more on the trains and structures.

Here in phoenix, everything is on a right-angle grid. Streets almost always intersect each other at 90 degrees, buildings line up to the streets, and the railroads follow the same straight line pattern - with one exception. One rail line runs about 45 degrees to the main city grid. I don't know how Houston is, but if I modeled Phoenix, it would look wrong if the tracks did not parallel the edge of the layout. The rail line goes a long way almost perfectly in a straight line. Many other cities I have been to have similar arrangements. Buildings parallel the railroad tracks. If the track was at an angle to the layout edge, that would mean background buildings would have to intersect the backdrop at an angle, and after a long run of straight track, the buildings would be getting rather thin the more I think about it, I think you are better off having the track parallel the layout edge. I would try to get rid of the S curves, though, and do similar to example #2 above. The biggest drawback I see is streets that intersect the tracks at 90 degrees also intersect the backdrop at 90 degrees. If the street met the backdrop at an angle, the "end of the road" is easier to hide.

Good information Kevin. Houston is not laid out quite as "perfectly" as Phoenix. Alot of the streets and rails are parallel, but alot of them aren't, so I will make use of both.

On the old layout shelves, around 75% of the track is parallel to the fascia, and about 80% of the new shelves will be that way. Some of the streets will be parallel or perpendicular, but some of them will also be at angles. I am going to have some difficulty hiding the street/backdrop joint. But, because the layout is 58 inches off the floor, it won't be quite so difficult. Because of the limited low angle view, it may be possible to "perspective paint" the continuation of the road on the backdrop. The actual painted road wouldn't be but maybe 1/2" up on the backdrop. Along with some painted trees and other stuff, it may work. If I can't accomplish that, I'll just hope that the rest of the layout will distract from the shortcomings.

Quote:I am going to have some difficulty hiding the street/backdrop joint. But, because the layout is 58 inches off the floor, it won't be quite so difficult. Because of the limited low angle view, it may be possible to "perspective paint" the continuation of the road on the backdrop. The actual painted road wouldn't be but maybe 1/2" up on the backdrop. Along with some painted trees and other stuff, it may work. If I can't accomplish that, I'll just hope that the rest of the layout will distract from the shortcomings.

I'm already thinking about these scenarios on my layout, even though no track has been laid yet. There's one scene already I know I'll either be using a photo or painting from a photo, but this is a creek, not a street. Fortunately it's hemmed in by a hillside on on bank, but a field on the other...so I'm not sure how it'll be blended in. But the height of the layout will make all the difference, I hope, in pulling off the illusion of traveling into the distance. I'm always impressed when that is pulled off effectively.

Good thoughts on tracks parallel to buildings & streets, therefore looking 'right' when aligned parallel to the edge.

I bet the rest of the layout will more than 'distract from the shortcomings', if your previous modeling is anything to go by!

Galen

ocalicreek Wrote:I bet the rest of the layout will more than 'distract from the shortcomings', if your previous modeling is anything to go by!

Galen, I very much appreciate your confidence, but I consider myself to be a neophyte when it comes to modeling. I have never ever actually glued ground foam onto a layout! The closest thing I have done to having a finished scene is the Texas Division of GERN Industries - and that is only a weathered structure with bascially no details, ground cover, or trees. The good news is, most likely I have many years ahead of me to perfect the techniques needed to make a great scene. And with your help, and the rest of the Big Blue Gang, well, I'm sure y'all will get me to where i need to be.

ocalicreek Wrote:I'm already thinking about these scenarios on my layout, even though no track has been laid yet. There's one scene already I know I'll either be using a photo or painting from a photo, but this is a creek, not a street. Fortunately it's hemmed in by a hillside on on bank, but a field on the other...so I'm not sure how it'll be blended in. But the height of the layout will make all the difference, I hope, in pulling off the illusion of traveling into the distance. I'm always impressed when that is pulled off effectively.

When you get around to that, please take photos of the process so I can copy your technique. I will also have some creeks (bayous) intersecting the backdrop, so I'll need to know how to do them. One of the bayous will have the bridge about 7" from the backdrop, so that will help hide the intersection, but some of the others will be alot tougher.

On that note, I have not discounted the possibility of hiring an artist to help me out. I know that is somewhat sacrilegious, and rather repulsive, but hey.... ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Gary, I remember an article in Model Railroad Hobbyist E-mag about using photo back drops, but looking through the table of contents of each issue, I couldn't find it just now. Since you are modeling from the prototype in your area, just take pictures of the specific streets that you want to model. Then crop the picture where the modeled scene ends and the back drop begins. Save the picture to a disc or jump drive and have it printed professionally at the size you need for a backdrop without any border and in a flat rather than glossy finish. Most photo developers will print "poster" size prints in vertical or horizontal formats. A photograph will give you better detail and the appearance of 3-d than any painting most of us amateurs could do. I would take the pictures when there are no cars driving on the street, since I think an empty street with cars parked on the side is more realistic than a street with a car on it that seems to be going some where but never moves. You could even shoot pictures of the sky at the same location and time to use above the picture to complete your backdrop if you are concerned about blending in the photographed sky and the painted sky on the backdrop. The other method that I've seen used is to carefully cut around objects so that the sky is removed from the picture and only the painted sky backdrop is seen. The same method can be used for hills, buildings, or other background features.

With all due respect to Russ, and to your modelling Gary, sometimes a phot-realistic backdrop can be "too much" for a layout. Even the incidental detail in a photo can be out of sync with what the owner has chosen to model (e.g. there are wires on the utility poles in the backdrop, but not modelled...).

One of the best techniques I have seen is to use a photo, but to paint over it and/or blend it using the colours on the layout. I.e. your green for trees on the backdrop matches whatever colour of groundfoam you use on the tree models.

MR had an article on this several years ago. Point was that you don't want the background to take away from the model in the foreground.

Andrew

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Here's an article with a variety of methods. I'll be revisiting this one when time comes to make my backdrop.

Galen

Russ, Andrew, thank you both for the suggestions. Everyone has been real helpful with the comments and suggestions lately!

Because of the height of the shelves, for the most part, the backdrop will just be sky... the buildings will be in front of alot of the layout/backdrop junction, and I'll disguise as much as I can with trees and fences and such. I may be painting some trees and distnat buildings, but these won't be elaborate, because I figure they will be less than 2" tall above the shelving.

The main areas on the backdrop that have me wondering what to do are at the road-backdrop intersections and at the creek/bayou-backdrop intersections. Especially the bayous and creeks.... this is where the shelving dips down significantly and I'll have to do something at those spots. I'm thinking to help disguise the low areas with trees or perhaps a highway bridge crossing near the backdrop, maybe even a pipeline crossing?

Still, the suggestions of using photos are great, or possibly using photos as a guide to painting. Some of the bridges/bayous I am modeling are from the prototypes near here. Perhaps it would be worth a try to take photos looking down the bayou at a low angle and then using that as an inspiration for painting.

ocalicreek Wrote:Here's an article with a variety of methods. I'll be revisiting this one when time comes to make my backdrop

Thanks for the link, Galen. There is tons of info out there, just have to find it. It certainly helps to have the entire Big Blue gang posting links to interesting websites when they find them.

Some progress the last couple of days.

First, got the CP mounted on the wall and connected to the layout. With four districts of uncoupler wiring and track wiring and loconet, the conduit sure helps make a neat job. the j-box with 3 pipes connects to piping in the wall which goes up into the ceiling, across the attic, and then down to the east wall, the south wall, and the north wall. The other j-box is the 120 volt power. The conduits on the left and right are track power and uncoupler wiring for the middle wall. The conduit in the middle is for the loconet wiring.

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The conduit extended from the control panel -

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Working on the conduit around the rest of the layout. Still have a ways to go on that. It isn't too hard and I'm having fun, and it'll be a breeze to just pull the wire in, make some connections in the j-boxes, and not have to worry about staples or whatever to hold the wiring up. I can't help but think this is way over the top for a model railroad, but as I have said several times, the wiring and technical stuff really interest me.

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Planning on spending all weekend in the train room working on wiring. I want to have it all complete so it is a simple matter of connecting the track feeders and uncoupler magnets and controls, and the UP5 panels.

Just looked at the last couple of pages of your layout progress thread.

In one word: WOW!

Love your wiring, and the way everything is coming together. This is going to be one heck of a layout!

Smile,
Stein