well, I'm impressed!

Now it's time to try to think outside the box. Is there some way to let some light fall on the part of the backdrop that can be seen "beyond" the drive-thru? The lightened/muted tone of the distant structure looks like it's working just fine ... except looking under/though the drive-thru teller portico ... it needs a little ambiant light.

But it really looks to me like you've got a pretty good handle on it! The farther away, the lighter, more muted, more grayed out the colors get. Sometimes it helps to put a tiny little bit of very pale purple in the paint ... it helps things recede. Really, Gary, it's beginning to look stellar! I like it! Not too much "doodled detail," rather just "suggestions" ... the eye will fill the detail in. (I remember in freshman year drawing class, they made us tand at arms length for the big newprint pad i=on the easle and hold a stick of chrcoal by the last 3/4" ... there's no "noodled detail" when you approach it that way! Just think like that's what you're doing and let it flow.

Remember, Alfred Hitchcock never actually showed any violence on the screen in "Psycho" ... he made your eyes and your imagination do all the work for him!

And remember, the back drop is just that ... a "supporting cast of characters in the background," those guys in the back of the scene who are just there to make the main characters not be all by themselves on stage ... they're not involved in the dialog between the main characters!

Kevin, thanks!

biL: Considering the photo with the drive-thru canopy - before I took the photo, I noticed that the background building was darker behind the canopy, and it shouldn't be like that. so, to "fix" it, I thought that a white wash over that part of the building would brighten it up. Well, it didn't. It just made it look dingy, and even worse. I'll go back and repaint that with the normal color, but try to make it brighter. Any suggestions on how to do that? Add some yellow?

The canopy almost looks like the cars are going into a tunnel, and it looks bad as it is. There will be a chain link fence and vegetation at the edge of the parking lot, but I don't think it will be tall enough to break up the view into the canopy.

Hmmm.... an LED light installed in the grill of a car going into the drive-thru? Cut the canopy roof back so it doesn't go all the way to the wall so some light can get onto the wall? But that would probably just make a horizontal shadow on the backdrop. May just have to live with it.

Back to backdrop philosphy, I am finding I have a hard time not putting in the details from the photos. Intuiton would say that the more the painting looks like the photo, and the more details we put in, the better it would be. But since our painting skills aren't refined enough, we'll never make the painting look like the photo. And so the details end up being undesirable, because they attract the viewer's eye to the backdrop - and since it caught his eye, he begins a closer inspection, and then he is seeing that the backdrop isn't that good! I think what we want is for the backdrop to only register in the viewer's mind from peripheral vision. >There is something there which looks plausible, but it doesn't attract the eye.<

Your mention of standing away from the easel gave me an idea. I need to look at the photos from further away, and pick out only the shapes that are obvious and only put them on the backdrop. Viewing the photo up close invites one to do too much detail.

Yessir, Gary ... I'm still up, too!

The smile on my face grew as I read through your latest post. "He's really thinking ... and getting it," I thought!

As for the drive-thru portico, my thought was to maybe experiment a bit with a "quickie" stand-in for the portico, leaving some portion of the roof of it open, allowing some light to reach the back drop surface. I have a sneaking suspicion that an auxiliary light source (an LED on the front of a vehicle or under the portico would tend to call attention (not what is wanted!) to a difficult structure/backdrop lighting situation (although the protico at my bank's drive thru teller does have lights under it, they are not apparent in the daylight hours.) Some experimentation will be needed in this area ... a little pensiveness beyond the borders of the common, everyday thought containment vessel.
And it should be now abundantly clear that a lightened color and reflected light are two different animals, altogether!

It was your fourth paragraph, though, the one regarding "backdrop philosophy" that brought the big smile to my face. I can see it coming together in your head.

Think about the Corporate Logo used by the company called EATON ... we see the whole name, but there is visual trickery afoot here! There is play between positive and negative shape going on and yet, the human eye glides right over it like individual "positive" letter forms. It doesn't read the dropped out "negative" spaces as "non-letters."

With our backdrops we are essentially playing the same game , only with representations of the world beyond what is actually being modeled rather than with letter forms on a page. Therefore, painting in an indication of the "positive" forms (the basic building shapes, with diminishd color intensity or saturation, diminished hue (making it somewhat "washed out") and merely an indication of detail using mostly visual cues of light and shadow, but no actual hard-edged detail, the eye will glide right on by as it follows the main subject, a nicely painted, detailed and weathered locomotive and several similiarly presented freight cars as they pass through the scene.

We will be glancing into the gallery room as we walk down the museum hallway, not sitting on a bench in front of a Salvador Dali painting, pondering what kind of drugs he was on to see all of those melting pocket watches! (And if you should sit on that bench one day and really look ... those watches are not very highly detailed, but there's enough there to make your eye tell your brain that it's a pocket watch having some serious structure problems!

Gary, like biL I think that you are absolutely on the right track with your backdrop. The backdrop should support your modeling and not distract from it. So making it too detailed is not desireable and not just because you think your painting skills are not up to it. There is a guy (MikeC) on The Whistle Post forum who is paintig his backdrop in a fashion you’d rather expect from a piece of art that you hang on your wall than using it as a backdrop for your model railroad. He is not painting any details at all, but his backdrop is fantastic and helps to create the right atmosphere for his layout that is set in winter. A photograph with lots of snow and all the details could not have such a convincing effect. Unfortunately I can’t find some of his best pics, but these are good enough to show the effect of the backdrop:
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Notice that there is "suggested" detail ... but not any real "hard line" detail! The illusion of distant environment helps set the mood for what is important in the scene ... the trains!

Also, the technique of "graying out" or muting the colors increases with the distance traveled from the foreground. That practice is best illustrated by the third linked image, where the road surface appears farther and farther away! The simple device of adding white or gray, along with, as I alluded to earlier, just a hint of very pale lavender (yeah, I know ... a girly color) helps the eye perceive the distance we want to convince it is actually there!

biL, these pics really show how well the methods you described work. Only downside is that not everyone is such a skilled painter as MikeC. I am not talking about you, Gary! You did a great job so far.

Here is another goodie: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.thewhistlepost.com/forums/gallery/data/500/Pic1RR.jpg">http://www.thewhistlepost.com/forums/ga ... Pic1RR.jpg</a><!-- m -->

Kurt ... You are correct about Mike C. ... he has skills.

And so did Rembrandt ... but he did not wake up one morning with them! What Gary has shown us so far is that the potential is there for him to create a reasonably believable background for his developing layout ... all of the important signals are there ... or germinating in his fertile gray matter!

Practice, a.k.a. studied repetition, is the only way to improve one's skills at any endeavor. The more one studies what he is doing and how and why it currently appears the way it does, and the more one struggles with the concept of creating a mere indication that there is something where there is nothing, and discovers the process for creating that illusion, the better the outcome will become. [You don't go to art school to be taught how to draw or paint. You go to art school to learn how to see!}


Your most recently provided link is a stellar example of the concepts and visual principles that I have been trying desperately to convey here over the past day or so.!

Immediately behind the green automobile’s rear bumper, if one looks very closely, is the point where the horizontal and the vertical planes meet. Yep! Right there! But manipulation of scene composition, color saturaation, hue and intensity, and the placement of objects at or near that intersection all but make it disappear! The curve in the roadway is a very helpful ploy as it unsettles the eye. Beautifully done! But I would bet, not the absolute first attempt!!!

I must thank you Kurt, for your kind assistance in providing relevant visual props to help my attempts to explain the principles at play here. The visuals could not have been chosen more appropriately! It's been over 40 years since, as a bright young senior in the Industrial Design Department, I was often called upon by the department faculty to substitute teach the freshman "Intro to Industrial Design 101" class ... I loved it ... it was the source of great enjoyment ... but I'm a bit rusty.

I'm enjoying the conversation and learning too. I admit that it is difficult to accomplish the stated aims though. It takes steady self-control to keep the details to a minimum, and to gradually haze out the items progressively depending on how far they are away. As biL said, the skill will come with practice.

Kurt, thanks for all those photos, they were instructive. In the last photo, the hazy indistinct distant city skyline is in contrast to the small building on the left, which has more detail because it is closer. Instructive.

One of the best things about that photo, as biL mentions, is that road. I will have to study that. How did he get the illusion of a long long road in just 1/2" of vertical paint?

I also noticed the power poles and wiring right against the backdrop. I like that. Now, a specific question on that...

I am wondering if I should put in the traffic signals at my road. There are two sets, one way off in the distance, one right where the backdrop meets the layout. I could paint them both in, or I could only paint the far ones, and model the close ones and string some thread across to hang them on, right at the backdrop, or I could leave them out. I am thinking it may be a way to frame the road going into the backdrop and help with the illusion. What do y'all think?

Photos:

[attachment=19990]

[attachment=19989]

I would model the close traffic signals. As you said, I think it will help the illusion. You only have to take care that they don’t cast a shadow on the backdrop.

Kurt, I have been playing around a bit with the signals. Plastic and threaddoesn't work because there isn't enough weight to make them hang right. I'm doing lead right now, will see how that goes. I wonder if some real thin musice wire might work.

On another note, here is the backdrop to the left of the white building:

[attachment=19991]

WoW...!! My jaw hurts from it hitting the table top so many times....
The discussion is really academic....The final product is perfect to a "T" ....

Gary,

See you don't need my help at all on backdrops you a KICKING A** on your own. I really like how you have been able to tackle this great project and really make it stand out with making it blend in and not stand out. Keep up the great work and keep us posted on your lighting fast progress.

Gary - to my eye the Walgreens building and scene looks super. The street somehow looks like a dust storm or fog has rolled in...maybe too much gray? As for the street lights and all that wire, I think you should definately find a way to work it in somehow. All the lines and wires in your prototype picture really add to the urban feel. Drawing them on with a pen or even pencil might work fine. Modeling power lines is tricky. Plenty of great ways to do poles...lines, not so much.

I have found that wire works better to model ropes and, sometimes string works better to model wire. Go figure. But most of the time wire holds its shape and can be carefully curved to hang the way you need it to. A little off topic, but I DO NOT like the stretchy string used on the pre-wired telephone poles...looks too taut to be power lines or telephone lines.

Why not paint the line on the backdrop and glue on a styrene streetlight?

Galen

I am truely loving this!!!

Gary S Wrote:... It takes steady self-control to keep the details to a minimum, and to gradually haze out the items progressively depending on how far they are away. As biL said, the skill will come with practice.

True, true and ... again … true! And you are well and truly progressing with your grasp of the principles involved at veritable light speed! It's getting down to repetition will now be the key to mastery. I have every confidence! And before you alter what you've done at the end of the parking lot, which is spot on in my book at this point, wait until more has developed in the neighborhood to determine the appropriateness of the results so far. You can never be totally sure of the result until you can see the scene as a whole, because that's what it is ... an entire scene ... not a gathering together of individual elements.

Gary S Wrote: ... In the last photo, the hazy indistinct distant city skyline is in contrast to the small building on the left, which has more detail because it is closer. Instructive. One of the best things about that photo, as biL mentions, is that road. I will have to study that. How did he get the illusion of a long long road in just 1/2" of vertical paint?

The device, or I think “ploy” was the word I used before, is the introduction of the "sub-title" curve introduced in the road. It is just enough to cause the eye a small amount of "confusion," a little extra to process that pure straight lines do not present for processing by the brain. Remember the "less is more" principle that Mies van der Rohe was so into? The road here is a perfect example of that multi-duty minimalism put into practice. It is such a simple device, two lines that curve gradually to one side, growing ever closer together, and containing a field of gradually lightening color as it recedes ever so slightly to the right. The device here leads the eye astray, fools it with constantly graying and fading color, forces it to perceive a change in direction and leads it to mere suggestion that “there is more there than meets the eye.” And while those two lines delineate the constantly diminished color saturation and reduced hue of the “road surface,” together they’re a device that causes the eye to work to the point where it wants to move on, because, “way back there,” it seems there is entirely too much to take in quickly. But when you really look at what’s actually back there … there’s not a whole lot of any real recognizable substance! Beautiful!

Note the color used all the way to the rear of the road (or just up from the horizontal plane … a very light gray, a spot of light? Sunlight? Maybe. Who knows! It’s a familiar, comfortable distraction from getting too involved in everything that isn’t there … another ploy or device used to put the viewer in his “comfort zone” so he is relaxed enough to accept what his eye is telling the brain is there, but it works because the transition is gradual.

Gary S Wrote:I also noticed the power poles and wiring right against the backdrop. I like that. Now, a specific question on that ... I am wondering if I should put in the traffic signals at my road. There are two sets, one way off in the distance, one right where the backdrop meets the layout. I could paint them both in, or I could only paint the far ones, and model the close ones and string some thread across to hang them on, right at the backdrop, or I could leave them out. I am thinking it may be a way to frame the road going into the backdrop and help with the illusion.

The notion of framing the road “going into the backdrop” again brought a wry smile to my face! “he’s really getting it! It’s so cool! It’s brilliant! And mixing two dimensional and three dimensional versions of the same thing in the same scene is ‘beyond the box” thinking! I would try painting the distant ones (2D) and mounting some not-very-detailed 3D ones directly on the backdrop. I’d try music wire or maybe a thin brass wire that you can introduce the proper “hang,” but place it very, very close to the backdrop in an effort to eliminate the possibility of an unwanted shadow. Those things ar anachronistic and ruin otherwise beautiful illusions!

The power poles, both 3D ones in the foreground and a 2D “indications” of them continuing along the road is a standard device to indicate progress towards that inevitable vanishing point in the distance. And although your road it needle-straight in the photograph, introducing a sub-title curve to it will serve to enhance the notion of distance while reducing the problem of a static vanishing point even as the viewer moves to one side or the other. That is often the big bugaboo (technical artistic term) when dealing with a subject that of necessity must dive perpendicularly towards the backdrop and continue on into the backdrop. There is not much helpfor the situation as when the viewer moves off perpendicular, the vanishing point does not reciprocate. But the introduction of a curve at that point and “beyond” seems to “move” when the viewer changes position.

I’m reminded of a scene on doctorwayne’s layout where a stream curves into the distance as it goes to the backdrop. It curves to the left and at some point back there, (in actuality only inches away) it does really come to a point! But we see it as the typical narrowing of two parallel lines headed for the vanishing point, which in every case is, in fact, a point!

O.K. … that should be more than enough to ponder for a little while.

Gary, you are headlong on a course to become the “go-to” backdrop guy in Houston, mark my words! You have grasped a couple semesters of artistic principle in only a night of concentrated effort! I have had fun exposing the concepts and principles! My enjoyment was tripled by watching you tackle and immediately grasp the techniques. I hope that you have enjoyed doing it as much as I have enjoyed exposing it! The only thing left is dogged repetition and concentration … at least in the beginning. Later on you’ll be able to carry it off by just watching the brushes do their thing while you think about the next scene down the line!